Pierre-Yves Rochon: “You Don’t Design for Yourself”

TRANSCRIPT

Pierre-Yves Rochon: You design for your client will give you the confidence. But not only for the client, you design for the people who work on the hospitality. If I’m going to design a bar, I’m going to the bartender and say, “Okay, what the people like? What you want me to do?” You need to listen to take care of the others.

Dan Rubinstein: Hi, I’m Dan Rubinstein and this is The Grand Tourist. I’ve been a design journalist for more than 20 years, and this is my personalized guided tour to the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food and travel, all the elements of a well-lived life. In the post-pandemic age, we’re experiencing a true travel boom, especially in the world of luxury. It seems like every time I open my inbox, I’m flooded with announcements of a new five-star luxury hotel opening somewhere, from Paris and New York to remote islands or isolated chalets. And when it comes to designing hotels, there’s one name that stands above the rest, especially when it comes to more traditional interiors: Paris-based legend Pierre-Yves Rochon. His CV reads like a list of triple platinum properties from around the world. The Four Seasons in Florence, the Savoy in London, the St. Regis in Rome, the Shangri-La in Paris, and his signature and probably most referenced hotel, which set a new standard for historic revivals and hospitality, the Four Seasons George V in Paris, opened in 1999 in a historic 1928 building.

Mr. Rochon had a rather international upbringing following his father, who was in the French military, around the globe. He started in Toulouse and opened his own firm in the late ’70s. As you’ll learn today, he sees his hotels as movies of a sort that are full of life, inspired by his love, the cinema. More on that later. In all, it’s that French effortless feeling sense of style that probably guides him more than anything. As he once explained to Hospitality Design Magazine, he looks for “s sense of emotion and a challenge. I never design just for design.” In 2016, his namesake firm became part of the massive and massively respected American architecture firm Perkins&Will.

The always debonair Mr. Rochon was also the talk of Milan’s Salone del Mobile this year in April when he designed the Villa Héritage, a massive pavilion exploring the right way to design with a traditional eye. And later this year, one of his biggest accomplishments to date will be revealed in New York, the long awaited redesign of the Waldorf Astoria. I caught up with Pierre-Yves Rochon from his offices in Paris to discuss his yearning as a young man to play the guitar, how he later rebelled against his own modernist education in Paris, restoring the grandeur of Manhattan’s most famous art deco masterpiece. And more.

I’ve been reading a lot about you and profiles about you, and I heard that you grew up in Brittany in France. Can you tell me about perhaps your earliest memories as a child?

Between Brittany and the rest of the world, because when I was a child, the fabrication of myself, if I may, was in Africa, in an island is Madagascar and my mother came back to Brittany.

Why Madagascar?

Why? For two reasons. My father was a pilot on the army and my grandfather was a surgeon at the hospital of Antananarivo in Madagascar. So this is, I suppose, and when my father came from the UK, from London, because he was with General de Gaulle in London, they went to Madagascar. It was part of France at this time. If I do understand, they need the liberation of this country, because at that time, it was as is. So my father married. Of course, my mother was the daughter of the surgeon of Madagascar and this is why I was there.

And after, so I came, if I do understand, to Brittany, I was born, in a small city, Le Pouliguen, in the south of Brittany. And I came back by the beautiful cruise ship, by boat, back to Madagascar. And after that, I was in Morocco, and I was in Dakar, in Senegal. I was in Conakry, I was also in Algeria, so different countries following my father who was colonel in the army. Pilot and colonel. So mostly all my neighbors when I was a young child were out of France except sometimes for vacation for two, three months in the south of Brittany.

And I read that when you were a child, you were fascinated by things like sculptures and ceramics, that you’d spend more time with your things rather than other children was…

When I was a child, for sure, I never play with the small-

Toys.

Toys like the car. I never play with the soldiers, I never play with what normally the young boy is doing. I was always dreaming and I draw, I was to do… I don’t know in English… Modeling all the arts from when I was six, seven or maybe, always I was interested only by this part of life, nature, art, things like that. I was not playing with the other way that normally the boy is doing.

Do you think that that was partly because you had moved around a lot to different places?

No, not only that, because my oldest brother was a very strong boy, make all the mistake he can do.

Very outgoing jock, maybe.

So we have the same life. So my thinking is, no, I was always interested in other things.

And did you play guitar when you were a child or a young man?

Yes, yes. Not very young, but around 14 I tried to buy a guitar. It was not easy for the family because this type of family, you should not play guitar music, you should be an engineer or doctor, nothing else. You cannot go to dance, you cannot do anything. All the music and art, very strange for the family.

With a father in the military and a mother who was a surgeon, right? Or?

My mother was the wife of the colonel, but she was interested in the people. I have not the right word in English to explain her life. She was Catholic, but she was next to the people and always interested in the life of the poor people. Yes, because-

Compassionate maybe.

Yes, exactly. And she was the daughter of the surgeon, so she had this DNA.

And before you became a designer, I read that you wanted to be a film director. Or I was wondering, as a child or a young man, when you were going to the theater, are there any movies in particular that particularly impacted you, favorite films?

When I was teenager, the beginning, immediately I knew what I wanted to do. Sometimes the teenager doesn’t know what they’re doing, what they can do. But for me, I was lucky because I know what I want to do. And as you mentioned, I wanted to be a movie director. But the problem was that, in France, the education you should do, you should be very good at mathematics in school. And it was not the case, because when you are an artist or when you feel the art, you are not very good at doing mathematics. So that’s why I was quite disappointed because I cannot do my dream. So at that time, if you ask me, the movie, strangely, I was very interested in Italian movies. I don’t know why. The ’50s, the ’60s, I think I love this type of movie and this is why, after that, I like the Italian director. And therefore, of course I love Visconti because Visconti, for me, I never met him, it was my dream. I’ll tell you why.

But the sensibility, the music, the beauty of the decor, is not just a director or an actor, but is complete, and this is what we try to do now as the interior designers. The people told me sometime on the movie with Visconti, if you have an actor who like to smoke, so when he need to smoke, when he opened the drawers, Visconti put everything like a smoker. So that means the actor can really feel. Behind that is a detail, is a sensibility of this director. And the music also always, if you see all the film is great, always the music. So this, I was very intrigued by that. But sometimes, Fellini, I love Fellini too, is a rival. So I think that’s what I’m interested not by just one type of music, one type of… It’s just the creativity because Fellini is incredible. Also, I can’t speak for everyone, so that means I was interested, but that’s for sure.

And you opened your firm in 1979 and you worked for other people before. So I was wondering if you could explain what the 1970s were like in terms of the design culture in France at the time.

That’s true. When I left the Beaux-Arts School, I was quite young for this and for 10 years, because from ’69 to ’79, I worked for one of the best interior designers in a Paris firm. I learned, of course, with this gentleman. And that period was really the modern design. It was not classic. For example, when I was in the Beaux-Arts School, strangely I did not learn all the classic parts of our heritage. Very strange. It’s not right but it is the case.

So you learned contemporary design and you worked for contemporary designers?

Yes. And for 10 years, with this gentleman, I love this period, we designed every detail. It was a creation from the ’70s. You know this period? The ’70s, ’80s? You can recognize today the design of this period. The new material, it was very interesting and I was lucky because we have a beautiful project, like the Rothschild Family Bank, so I was in charge of the Rothschild Bank. High quality, but for sure, it was one type of the design. It was pure creativity for the art, for the design, for the color, for the materials from this period, so I love this period very much. But one day I said I was sure, for 10 years after that, I wanted to be myself. That was decided from day one. I did… It is an image, a blue, 10 years. Always blue.

Just using the color blue.

Yes. That means I always did the same things. When you design a contemporary, a new design, sometimes you are… [French 00:14:24]. Prisoner?

Prisoner.

Of your style. You don’t do an evolution.. And after, you do always something. You have the painter, the artist, if you take Dubuffet, for example, everything of Dubuffet, maybe somebody would be shock to listen me to the last, but it’s Dubuffet. It’s never beautiful flowers. He never paint… Is always… After 10 years, I was thinking, I’m doing always the same things and I want to do something else. I want to do red, yellow, green, pink. Not only red. No. Pink, green, yellow, purple. I said to him, because I have a very good relationship with him and was number two, I said, “I want to do the other color.” “No, no, no, we do together the best blue.” So I left.

And then what was your first commission on your own?

My first commission on my own was two French subjects and one abroad. The first one is Château des Crayères in Reims. Reims is the capital of Champagne. And that was transforming a castle on Relais & Châteaux. That’s very French. And imagine, until today, I’m working on this project. More than 45 years later. I was with the family, with the father, and now I’m working with the sons. That’s one of the projects. The second one was for the American company, Caterpillar. Completely another subject. It’s the head office of Caterpillar in France.

Oh, okay.

Yes.

Construction. Big manly construction.

Construction. It was completely another way to drink the champagne on the Château. And the third one, I win Carlton in Cannes with Intercontinental and, in Oman, in Muscat, a beautiful property was under construction in Al-Bustan and I won the project. Immediately, as you can see, three different lives. Three different designs. And that was my dream. I don’t want to do only one type of design and I was lucky to have that and successful, if I don’t understand.

(SPONSOR BREAK)

What is it about a hotel, in particular, that has made you so renowned for this kind of particular type of work? Why are you so good at doing a hotel?

Thank you for telling me I’m so good because I think about the others. I’m not thinking about myself. The first, I’m dreaming about the client. The first I listen. The client ordered me to do the job, but more than this, what should be the customer? Who is coming to this hotel? What do they want? If it’s me, when I open the door, what should be the journey? That’s the beginning. And I really think about this narrative and you don’t design for yourself. You design for your client who give you their confidence, but not only for the client, you design for the customer, the people who’re going to live in the hotel.

And I’m always like this. I say, “Okay, I pushed open the door. Is it a classic hotel? Is it a contemporary hotel? Is it an urban hotel? Is it a resort? What is it? What should it be and what should not be shown there? If I leave there, why will I come back? What I can…” So you need to think about your clients and I think that is a part of success. The second part of the success is professionalism. I’m always listening to the people who work in hospitality. General manager, I’m always listening. If I’m going to design a bar, I’m going to the bartender and saying, “Okay, what do the people like? What do you love? What do you want me to do?” It’s the same for the restaurant. What is the menu? What do you want to serve? What should be? You need to listen to take care of the others. And after that, that translate.

What makes a hotel that you have designed particularly French? What is the French element to your designs?

There are two possibilities. It also depends on the subject because, when you design a hotel where you need to… Is an iconic hotel and you decide to bring back the DNA of the past. Definitely French, the approach part. Because we have, at home, your grandmother, your family, you have shades of [inaudible 00:22:01] from the 18th century. You live, when you work on the street in Paris, you have the beautiful building and it gives you the DNA of the heritage of the past. That’s France. If I’m in New York, if I’m in Chicago, I do not have this DNA. I don’t know if I explained myself clearly. And this is why, at the end, the approach of any project isn’t part of our education. Is not the same education as an American designer, for example. And of course, that tradition is different.

And you’ve worked with a lot of chefs, like Joël Robuchon and Alain Ducasse and Jean-Georges on restaurants. And because you work with so many great chefs, what can you tell me about what makes a great restaurant successful? What makes these designs really work?

The first is the chef. It’s not the design, if I may.

Because a lot of chefs that I’ve interviewed, they all take the design of their restaurants very seriously and they really consider it. It’s not something they just…

No, they are completely right. I think, when you go into the restaurant, it should be a time out of the world. If you’re into the evening and, for me, when I’m [inaudible 00:23:58], so what is the way to bring me to the table? What the word? What they said? When I’m sitting at the table, if it’s night, what is the light? Where can I go? What am I going to see around? Where are the neighbors? Is it next to me? Is it far away? What do I feel?

Of course, that’s the first impression and, as a designer, we need to do this. And after that, this feeling you have before, to check the table, what you have on the table and, as a first approach, the lighting, maybe the music, everything is a part of an opera. You are coming to the opera to have a beautiful dinner. For me, music, lighting, comfort of the space, the space around. That’s the beginning. And after that, the service. The best service.

Oh, the best service is that you don’t feel it, right? Okay.

Yes. Believe me. If you pass with a friend and you don’t remember the waiter was a beautiful girl, you don’t know, but it was so nice. That is a service. I can explain all of this for hours, but that is a part of the chef because the chef is not only in the kitchen. With Joel Robuchon, because you mentioned Robuchon, the light we check together. For me, the music. Everywhere I’m going to the restaurant is … Sometimes it is not nice for the people who come with me because it’s too loud. “This is bad. This is this. That’s sort of this.” After that, the way to serve the plate, the [inaudible 00:26:21], the food, all the sequences, all of this, and the chef, they are more and more artists. And the chef, an enormous evolution for the chef. Imagine they choose a vegetable, they have the salt or the sugar, and at the end, when they bring it to you on the table it’s a piece of art. This is why the interior designer works with the chef. And you can also say it is quite interesting in every detail. All the chefs I work with, they’re interested in all the details, because the success of the restaurant is every detail, as I mentioned: the light, the music, the sound, the space, the way to serve, and of course, the food.

One of your most famous hotels is the George V in Paris, and can you tell me the story about how that hotel came to be?

Yes. Just before one hotel—but this was a long time ago, so I don’t know now if you can compare that—what I was going to say, it was in Hong Kong. The Regent in Hong Kong, in the ’80s, I think was a dream, dream by the architecture, quite contemporary with a touch of the Chinese influence, but contemporary. The bedroom was minimum 650 square feet, minimum.

Okay. Quite large.

The view on the wall with all the traffic, all the towers, bathroom, a dream size, walking, dressing, and the service is a dream. At that time, the oriental, the Far East services were very … I do remember that. That’s a beautiful hotel. I think now it is an InterContinental [inaudible 00:28:44]. At that time it was new to the region, it was the top of …

Anyway, so now back to Paris and George V. So the George V, I was in competition, I think with six or seven designers, and I was interviewed by two people. His Highness, the Prince Al-Waleed, around midnight, and with Isadore Sharp around noon. I hope you see. And both decide I will be the designer of the George V. The George V was the first Four Seasons, mostly, in Europe. One was in London, and I did after I worked on … but in Paris, for sure, it was the first time. And in Europe, just London, Four Seasons. What was interesting is to keep the DNA of Paris, that’s what His Highness and Isadore Sharp wanted. And at the same time, less dusty French design. I hope it’s clear what I say.

And how do you feel you executed that wish?

I think it was very interesting for me. Number one, I was proud. Why? Because for me, Isadore Sharp is the best of the best creators in hospitality. After that, I work with him as an extraordinary gentleman. So I learned a lot. Four Seasons at that time was, I think on the word, the excellence of the hospitality was sometimes more than the palaces in Europe or Paris. We were tired and not … so I learned a lot with Four Seasons. I went many times to Toronto and the way they work … but on my way, strangely, I was not good at mathematics, but I’m good at organization and I’m more … I’m not very Latin or French. I’m all the other way. And the Prince, everybody told me, “Oh, you work with an Arab. You are going to do a gold hotel.” No, extraordinary gentleman, extraordinary experience. And it was interesting, for me, because I have two clients, His Highness who pays me and Isadore Sharp who chooses me, and I need to bring both together and do the George V.

And how do you feel you brought those two things together? What was the …

To respect everyone. So I hope I was a good ambassador, by the way, by two top people. They don’t need me. But, at the end, I try to be the ambassador because the people stay human beings. You can be the top of the world, you are a human. And sometimes I hope I was the ambassador through my professional design.

And, obviously, as a New Yorker, I have to ask about the Waldorf Astoria because this has been in the planning, the restoration, for quite some time, which will open this year. And tell me about taking on this New York icon. Just the name itself is such a name in American luxury circles, I guess you could say, or the lexicon.

Number one, again, it is an honor for me to win this project, and I know how lucky I am and the responsibility to do this project. That’s the first. 30 years ago, I was with my wife. I slept at the Waldorf and in the lobby—who was completely ’30s, because I love the ’30s also—I said to my wife, “I don’t know why. I promise you it’s true. I will do this project one day.”

Really? Okay.

“I would love to do this project. It’s really true.” That happens. The way … Economically, the Waldorf, the owner changed. That is [inaudible 00:33:50] subject and nothing to say, but one part is a condo and the small part is the hotel. In the guest room from … if the figure is not perfect, before it was 1,500 keys approximately. Now we’ll [inaudible 00:34:10] 257, I think, keys, something like that. So a big change. So that means, with the room configuration, I’m doing a completely new product. I hope this product, every American will be happy to live there to see that. So that means a minimum of size of the room is again 600 square feet, with a beautiful bathroom—which is not the case in New York, where you have a separate shower, separate WC, double vanity, shower, bathtub, walking, dressing, new way of working as you have today not covered. And I hope, when it will be there, it will be more like … for example, the room, like a studio residential; not just one more hospitality room in New York. I hope.

When is the opening date so far? When do you think?

It will be, I hope — because it’s not me, I’m not in charge of all of this—after spring or summer. I hope so. Just to finish without … because I can’t speak for so many things.

Sure, sure.

Public space, I respect completely. By the way, it’s listed first. Number two, we do a new entrance, your new journey for the guests. I hope Americans will like this. It would be more luxurious, I think. And they’re going to rediscover a beautiful property. I promise you a beautiful property. After that, sometimes the details…because I always say you can write the best partition of music; if you’re not a good conductor or good musician, your music can be some problem. But I was there with Lisa one or two months ago, the public space—incredible. And we respect … I hope the Americans say that the French didn’t destroy the Waldorf, but bring back the life, I hope, to the Waldorf.

And how would you describe that Waldorf Astoria spirit, or that life, compared to other hotels in New York? Is it grander?

The grandeur. Especially in public space. I rediscovered myself, my last visit, the grandeur. This is why, when you ask me some questions, I want to say a little bit about the public spaces, because it’s a new journey. And no, I think, with no other hotel in New York, I’m going to have this grandeur. It’s not me, it was before me.

Sure.

With just respect, and change some destination. But it is the thirties, American thirties. And I respect all of this. And I hope this hotel will be number one in the competition. And we respect the DNA and the jewelry of the Waldorf.

And we’re recording this in the middle of March, right before the Salone in April in Milan, where you’re creating a special exhibition at the legendary furniture fair at the Salone del Mobile called The Luxury Way. Can you tell us what this … I guess pavilion might be the right way to describe it.

[French 00:38:24]. The first, of course, it’s always an honor for you, one day, invite you as a guest on the Salone to do some things. What does this mean? What I’m going to do is not just PYR design, is not, I’m doing a job. After that, the way I’m doing the job, we’ll see if it’s right or not. Message, today, when you’re going to the fair, to the Salone. It’s an extraordinary Salonais. Many ideas, many creations. But I’ve been going to the fair for more than 40 years. 40 years ago, I think, half-and-half. Half of the Salonais pavilions were classic and half were contemporary, with new design. Today, you have two pavilion classic and the rest contemporary design. My job is just to say, “Hey, don’t forget that it exists, it is a part of your life. You have behind that a lot of… Within France savoir-faire, the way to do it is extraordinary.”

My dream was okay. They said, “Can you do something around 4,000 square feet?” Something. They don’t tell me nothing. I was thinking, I said, “Okay, I’m going to do a villa, a beautiful villa, an Italian villa.” I’m not doing competition on the architectures, but I’m doing here. It’s just a beautiful square, terracotta, because we are in Italy, this part of Italy, and it looks so scenic. And, at this fair, everything is crazy, everywhere is noisy. I want just a brief, so in the middle of the pavilion, we have a brief, first with carpets. When you walk, you don’t work anymore on the concrete, but on the carpets. That relaxes you.

And around this square villa, around the world, you have a garden, I hope with the sound of the birds. It’s the beginning of something. And before to cross the garden to go inside, I said the name is a villa because it’s Italian, and heritage. It’s not a villa of classic, is heritage. And again, strangely, maybe it’s coming, like your first question, when I’m going to the lobby of this villa, music lights, mise en scene again, and we are mixing flavor, smelling. You are going to leave an experience of the design with the heritage. Every room, the size of the room is, I don’t know in feet, is five meters.

Okay. Quite large.

Quite large. 12 feet, no, or something like that, maybe?

Five meter would be 15 feet or something.

15, right? Yes. You see, quite large. And each room has its own story and color. Mostly, you have five or six rooms. When you’re coming first, the lobby is terracotta. You are going to have a big marble statue, two meters 50 high, extraordinary. And after that you’re going into the salon. Red, completely red and about the opera. And immediately you are going to listen Maria Callas singing Norma at La Scala in Milano. You will see the dress red… She wear. I’m right? For this performance.

The dress that she wore for the performance. Yeah.

Yes, next to the fireplace. And a red rose on the coffee table. The picture of Visconti with Maria Callas when she directed her on this performance. Voila, is the beginning.

It’s like a little journey into your mind, essentially.

Yes. And I hope, when you will be there, you feel this journey. You have the music, you have the thing, and every room has a different story and color. Again, professionally, when you are going to see that, two possibilities: the first thing is amazing. I can live from the red to the purple, to the green, to the white. We will see.

And with so much experience in your career, as we say “under the belt” here in the US, what are you looking forward to now in your career? What is left to accomplish?

The first, I love what I’m doing and I always want more. I don’t want to stop. I’m not racing by everything. It’s really the full. I’m not a star. No, no. I wake up with a design, I’m sleeping with the design, I’m waiting with the designer’s creativity. To do this challenging, for three months in Milano, it’s funny, it’s interesting to do, but believe me, we try to do the best we can. But of course, we never know if one day we do an opera or we do something. We are ready.

You’re still ready for something. A new challenge.

Yes, of course. And the challenge is the best. That is interesting. Always challenging. Of course. I’m ready for that.

And if there was one thing, one aspect of a hotel that you would like to personally improve on, not from a particular project, in general, is there a particular part of hotels today, in this post-pandemic moment, you think we can do better? We can make these more impactful?

Yes. I have the answer, but I don’t know if I should tell you because this is a secret, but no matter. It’s really true. Okay, maybe I should tell you. Is a way to live in my room is a way to live in a hotel. If you think little bit about this, it’s true, because when you’re going to the luxury and you paid a lot of money, are you getting the services, the luxury, you expect today or not? Think about this. This is what I want to develop because I think we need to… The innovation or the future is the way you take care about what your guests, not a fashion, not fake. Really. Example: breakfast. Just breakfast. I don’t want to develop, but think about this when we finish speaking together. When I’m going to the best hotel, I pay so much money. What is the way they treat me? Do I remember it was extraordinary? Is it luxury or is it just fashion?

Thank you to my guest, Pierre-Yves Rochon, and to everyone at his firm for making this episode happen. The editor of The Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don’t forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter, The Grand Tourist Curator at thegrandtourist.net. And follow me on Instagram @danrubinstein. And you can purchase the first-ever print issue of The Grand Tourist online now on our website. And don’t forget to follow The Grand Tourist on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen, and leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Till next time!

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