Judy Chicago: Revelations

TRANSCRIPT

Judy Chicago: We’ve all been taught this myth that it was competition that built the world. And actually, that’s been disproven. Although it is not widely known, it was collaboration that built this world, and it will be collaboration that will save this world.

Dan Rubinstein: Hi, I’m Dan Rubinstein, and this is The Grand Tourist. I’ve been a design journalist for more than 20 years, and this is my personalized guided tour through the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food, and travel; all the elements of a well-lived life. I love when guests don’t just answer questions but tell me a story. On today’s episode, we’re going to listen to one hell of a story from the legendary American artist, Judy Chicago. But instead of a simple Q&A, we’re going to take you on a special journey that, while partially a work of theological-like fiction, couldn’t be more real and meaningful to Chicago. Allow me to explain.

For those that don’t know her, the artist was born Judith Sylvia Cohen in 1939. Chicago is a name she chose for herself. And for her career spanning more than 60 years and going strong, she’s been at the forefront of spreading a kind of feminist gospel through her paintings, sculptures, installations, textiles, photography, and more. And in the past few years, she’s been riding high with a resurgence of interest in her work that probably went underappreciated for years. Her first major survey, Judy Chicago Herstory, landed at New York’s New Museum ending earlier this year. And she had two other recent major shows at the Serpentine in London and LUMA Arles in France. And this fall, she’s featured in eight museum shows in the USA and abroad.

Her new book, Revelations, an illuminated manuscript by Chicago herself, was published in part for her show by the same name at the Serpentine and was first written in the 1970s while she was working on one of her most famous works, the Dinner Party, and has just been published for the first time. The Dinner party is a ceremonial banquet taking the form of a massive triangular table with 39 place settings, each given to an important female figure in history. More on that later.

Today, Judy Chicago will read from five chapters in her book, Revelations, each one followed by a little chat between us to give context to her stunning visions. You’ll hear a re-imagining of the Genesis myth, learn the often forgotten tales of pivotal women like Sacagawea, experience a global reawakening of the human soul for justice and equality, and witness a glorious apocalypse like you’ve never read before. And along the way, you’ll hear Judy Chicago’s own definition of feminism, how men and others have been systematically erased from that history, her thoughts on the art market for young artists as well as heartfelt advice for activists everywhere. And now, Judy Chicago.

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Part One: Revelations of the Goddess

In the beginning, there was nothing, for all was dark and chaotic. Then out of the chaos there emerged a sigh, and the sigh became a moan, and the moan became a wail, and the wail became the scream of birth. And mighty was this birth for it was the birth of the universe. And the universe was brought forth in the pain and the struggle that would forevermore accompany the creation of life.

The screams of his birth sent forth circles of sound into the blackness. And the circles of sound whirled through the void, forming a great shape; and that was the shape of the universe. And still the cries of birth continued to spin out into the darkness until the whole of the universe was filled with the sound of them and began to pulse. And this pulsing was the rhythm of labor. The throbbing waves of sound continued until the entire universe was expanding and contracting as it endeavored to realize its own being. And out of that great labor were born all of the planets. And they were the daughters of the universe. And that was the work of the first day.

Among the planets born on the first day was the Earth, and to her was entrusted the labor of the second day. And on this second day, the sound of birth was heard again as the Earth divided, and in a great issue of blood emerged the ovum of life which rose into the air and hovered over the Earth and guarded it. And this was the moon. And the blood surged out of the center of the Earth, out of the center of the primeval vagina. And it formed the oceans and the rivers. And the moon caused the oceans and the rivers to ebb and to flow. And still the blood poured forth and the Earth was nourished and the body of the Earth rose up and her thighs became the mountains and her belly formed the valleys. And from her breasts issued the white milk of light, which illuminated and nourished all that she had created on the second day.

And on the third and final day, the Earth became the primeval goddess. And she was the mother of all living things. Plants sprang up from her body and living creatures crawled out of her oceans, and her tresses spread out across the Earth and became the trees and the grasses, the flowers and the fruit. And when all this was done, one last wail sounded in the universe as the primal vagina gave birth to woman. And woman was created wholly, for she was endowed with all the power of the universe. Her faces were multiple, like the phases of the moon. She was the black stone; a reminder of the primal darkness from which all life springs. And she was the red crescent whose blood would transform the soil and make the Earth a fertile place for all life’s creatures. And she was the white egg who would cherish the Earth and keep its air, water, and land pure. To her was entrusted the blessing to increase and to multiply and to fill the Earth with her own kind. And woman gave birth to the human race in pain and in struggle. And she accepted it in joy, for she knew that all life and all growth brings pain. And woman brought forth the human race, and male and female, she birthed them.

In the beginning, man was woman’s helpmate and her companion, her son and her lover. Together, they lived in harmony and in innocence. And together, they walked in the cool of the evening. And together, they discovered the sound of their voices. And they sang together and they laughed together and they felt the lightness of their bodies. And they ran together over the Earth. And together, they tasted the sweet fruit of the trees. And together, they lay in the warmth of the sun.

When you first sat down to put pen to paper, what was your thinking in terms of where to begin? And what did you want to get across in this new Genesis story?

Genesis is based on a lie that a male god reached out his finger and created man. And that is not how birth happens. It is women who give birth. And as long as that lie and that myth, which is interpreted in multiple ways across culture, as long as that lie underpins the structure of civilization, and particularly Western civilization, women are in second place, created out of a rib rather than central to the creation story. And I wanted to challenge it. Finding truth has been the purpose of my life, and revealing truth has been the purpose of my work.

And how do you believe these foundational legends we grew up with, like the Bible and so on, were impactful for your own personal history growing up? How did they shape your early worldview?

Well, first of all, I’m Jewish. And even though the Genesis story underpins Judeo-Christian religion, there’s a saying in Jewish culture, “Two people, two Jews, three opinions.” And Jews cannot be excommunicated the way Catholics can, which means we are allowed to hold a diversity of opinions and still be Jewish.

I grew up in a secular household. My father was a Marxist, although he broke with the Communist party early on and actually was devoted to Marxist principles rather than communism. And those principles involved working for justice and equality for all people, human and even non-human creatures who share the planet. My father used to hold political meetings in our house. He was a labor organizer. And he included everyone who was at our house in the discussions: Black, white, male, female. And he expected me, as his firstborn, a girl child, to participate in those discussions.

I grew up, first of all, with a non-religious orientation. Although I believe in God, I believe that God is the miracle of life in which we should stand before in awe and reverence and treat with great care. I cannot and have never been able to accept a white, male god, which reflects the patriarchal values against which I have rebelled since my early days. Going back to when I was a college student at UCLA, taking a course in philosophy, because I was an art major and a philosophy minor. And my professor used to call on the boys when they raised their hands even though my hand was up. But I was such a believer in equality, thanks to my father, that I would just wave my hand around until the professor got embarrassed and called on me.

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Part Two: Myths, Legends, and Silhouettes

As badly treated as colonial women were, Indigenous women endured lives even more curtailed by manifest destiny. Native women could sometimes improve their lives by forming relationships with white men. They had no way of knowing that their relationships with this men and their help in opening up the Western territories would eventually lead to the wholesale slaughter of their people.

The Puritans who came to America brought with them the severe restrictions on women’s roles and the notion of family articulated by the Reformation. The early colonial days in America, however, provided a more liberal atmosphere, though not if a woman too openly challenged the clergy’s authority as Ann Hutchinson had done. Because women were in great demand and in short supply, their value was evident, though they were positively defined only as wives and mothers.

But women’s work as part of the economic unit of a rural family was important to the growth of the country, and until the end of the Revolutionary period, women move freely into most occupations. Though women had no formal political rights, many were active in public affairs and involved in the Revolutionary struggle, some fighting side-by-side with the men. But when the war was over and the new government formed, the women found themselves left out. There were no women at the Constitutional Convention and no women at the polling places during the first presidential election. They were not granted rights by and were unmentioned in the Bill of Rights. By the end of the 18th century, what few privileges they had previously enjoyed were being increasingly withdrawn.

As badly treated as colonial women were, Indigenous women endured lives even more drastically curtailed by manifest destiny. In most tribes, before the arrival of the Europeans, women were not only highly regarded and protected, but occupied positions of authority in both civil and religious affairs. Because Native Americans had retained tribal structures long after they had entirely disappeared from Europe, Native women continued to enjoy rights in most tribes that white women had lost long ago.

Before the appearance of white men in America, prostitution and rape were virtually unknown to Indigenous people. The trade in enslaved people did not really develop until after Europeans landed on the shores of the new world. From the first entrance of Europeans into America, Indigenous women were victimized. Thousands were raped by the early Spanish conquerors or handed out in lots of 300 or 400 by army officers to their men.

Later, the practice of raiding Native American towns for women began and soon expanded into a full-fledged market for enslaved Indigenous women. As the fur trade developed, the traders took Native women as mistresses almost as a matter of course, with or without their consent. At the same time, the fur traders were dependent upon the goodwill of the Indigenous communities in order to move safely through their territory, and so were generally less brutal than the soldiers.

But when the settlers began to arrive, they brought with them a determination to get rid of the Native Americans, even if it meant exterminating them. Native Americans were viewed as beings to despise, and Native women were regularly hunted, clubbed to death or shot with rifles. During the move westward, the rape of Native women was so common as to be considered a casual byproduct of the natural right of white men to what had once belonged to proud and independent peoples.

In 1805, when Lewis and Clark set off on their expedition to the northwest, they needed an interpreter, for one of their assignments was to inform Native Americans that they were now living on land owned by the United States. They hired a fur trader in order to gain the services of his wife, Sacajawea, who spoke several Indigenous dialects. She had been captured as a young girl from the Shoshone who occupied much of the territory through which the explorers planned to travel. The Shoshone and the tribe that had taken Sacagawea prisoner did not regard women as highly as did many of the other tribal nations. Native women could sometimes improve their lives by forming relationships with white men, some of whom were kind to them. During the early days of exploration, before either the soldiers or the settlers moved west, these women often acted as guides, interpreters, or peacemakers for the whites. They also accompanied the formal expeditions of discovery led by fur traders, and made significant contributions to the exploration of the wilderness.

The women had no way of knowing that their relationships with these men and their help in opening up the Western territories would eventually lead to the wholesale slaughter of their people. Sacagawea had been acquired by a fur trader when she was 10 or 12 years old, either by barter or in a gambling game. She was only 16, and her newborn baby just six weeks old when she tucked him into his cradleboard, strapped him to her back, and sat off on the long Lewis and Clark expedition to the Pacific top coast.

As the only woman on the trip, it fell to her to forage for and prepare the food, gather herbs and make healing potions, nurse the sick, and mend the clothes, all the while caring for her infant son. In addition, she acted as an interpreter, and as they moved into the wilderness, a guide. Sacagawea’s daily assistance was accepted by the explorers without comment, though her very presence protected them. It assured the Native American tribes they encountered, that their mission was peaceful, for a war party never traveled with a woman and a baby.

At one point in the journey, the boat they were traveling in almost capsized, and it was only by Sacagawea’s efforts that their valuable supplies were rescued and the expedition saved. Familiar with much of the territory through which they journeyed, she was warmly greeted when they finally reached Shoshone lands. Her brother, a chieftain, urged his long-lost sister to remain with them, but she felt loyal to the explorers because Clark had protected her more than once from the drunken brutality of her husband.

When they returned from the expedition, Sacagawea received no pay, though her husband did. And for many decades thereafter, her name was almost lost to history. Except for the year and a half of the trip, little is known about her life and controversy still surrounds her death. Contemporary records indicate that she died in her 20s, possibly in childbirth. But according to date of oral history, she lived to be an old woman called Chief by the Shoshone to whom she returned. There is a tombstone in Wyoming where she is supposedly buried, and thousands of people journey yearly to visit her grave. 100 years after her historic trip, a statue was dedicated to her, and more recently, the US Mint created a dollar coin in her honor. Sacagawea is yet another woman who managed heroic feats despite the many challenges she faced and whose achievements were nearly erased.

And this we spoke about a little bit briefly, but why did you include this tale of Sacagawea and Native women in this book?

Well, the book, Revelations, was originally tied to The Dinner Party. I had studying women’s history by the early ’70s when I started working on The Dinner Party for eight years on a self-guided research to that was stimulated by my experiences in the LA art scene of the 1960s, which though inspiring to be in because there was a freedom and a spirit of self-invention, was definitely not hospitable to women. And I was facing so many challenges that I decided to look back into history, my father was a student of history, to see if there were any women before me who had faced similar challenges in how they had overcome them.

Also, when I was in college, I took a course called The Intellectual History of Europe. And at the first meeting the professor, I can still see him with leather patches on his tweed jacket, announcing that at the last session he would talk about women’s contributions to Western history. As I was an ambitious young woman determined to make a place for myself in art history, I waited all semester. At the last class, he strode onto the stage and arrogantly said, “Women’s contributions, they made none.” So I wanted to find out if that was true.

When I started researching, I was overwhelmed with what I discovered, the amount of information I discovered. This was way before the internet. I found it in used books. I found it in the histories women had written in the late 19th century of women as part of the suffrage movement. I found it in Christine de Pizan’s Book of the Cities of Ladies, in which she describes a mythical history of women, 500 women written in the 15th century. I found all this information that was not just unknown, but that had erased, systematically erased, and it made me really, really mad.

Now, rage can paralyze you or rage can empower you creatively. I chose the latter path. And with the hubris of youth, I decided with my paintbrush, I was going to overcome the erasure of women’s history, women in Western civilization, because that is a history I was most familiar with. And actually, I’ve only recently realized that since The Dinner Party premiered in 1979 and traveled around the world, and is now permanently housed, I have literally educated millions of people about women’s history, something I feel very proud of.

Now, the history of Western civilization, as it is written and as I learned it, is presented through a series of heroic men, white men, and I wanted to challenge that. I wanted to select 39 women, which is the number of men at the Last Supper, plus Jesus, times three, because I couldn’t get them all in 13, which meant 39. 39 women in history, heroes, each of whom would represent one of the streams of women’s history. Because the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps ignores the systems of support, vast systems of support, that men enjoy that women have not had access to. Women have had to build their own support systems, just like I built my own support system for my career of individuals who believed in me and without whom I would never have been at this point in my career where I have achieved my goals.

At any rate, the story of Native American women and African American women has been left out of the story I learned about Western civilization. And when people criticize me about the lack of representation of women of color, they forget that historically, Native women do not appear in the history of Western civilization until the Europeans conquered the West. And the history of African-Americans does not appear in the history of Western civilization until they were brought here in chains. Each of the women on the table, their place setting rests above a stream of names that represents the long traditions out of which their achievements grew.

And of course, in my alternative history, there was no question that I would include Native women and African-American women to the degree that I could find them. People have no idea today what it required in the 1970s to find women’s history. I started by myself and slowly built a research team that included no trained historians, because they would have nothing to do with us. It was a rag-tag group that believed passionately in what I was trying to do, and in order to assemble a history of 3000 women, enough information that I could make an image for the table.

This is what we would have to do. We would have to read five or six books, sometimes more, on each woman. For example, the history of Caroline Herschel was buried in the history of her brother, the astronomer William Herschel. We had little index cards, and we would write down the fact that in one book it said, “Caroline Herschel was also an astronomer.” In another book, “Caroline Herschel did all the calculations for William’s work.” In another book, “Caroline Herschel found eight comets on her own.” And in yet another book, “Caroline Herschel ran her brother’s household.” That is what it took to assemble the history that is represented in The Dinner Party.

And how has the histories and cultures of indigenous Americans made an impact in your art over the years since then?

Well, first of all, I live in New Mexico, which involves a culture, or three cultures, Hispanic, Anglo, and Indian, where the imprint of Native culture is very strong. Although I did the Dinner Party long before I came to New Mexico. I always liked Native work. I particularly was drawn to beading, which is very prominent in the history of Native art, which is why I wanted to use beading for The Sacagawea Runner, which involves the cradle that she wore on her back and is beaded. Also, The Runner is made from rawhide, which we created ourselves in a traditional way, and the plate is based on traditional Shoshone patterns. So I drew on Native art as I drew on the history of art and the history of needlework in creating each of the place settings.

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Part Three: The Yearning

Many women were becoming doctors and lawyers, dancers and artists, scientists and mathematicians. In Europe and America, society folded his arms and announced that the fight was over, women’s rights had been won and were now a dead issue. The feminist revolution of the 19th century was gradually obscured and forgotten as the world became involved in seemingly more important problems. The severe economic depression that rocked Europe and America in the late 1920s and early 1930s sharply curtailed the advances women had been able to achieve, in part because men needed to hold onto the employment they still had. The second World War dramatically increased opportunities for some women as they were needed to take over almost all the jobs held by men.

But after the war was over and the men returned, women were again pushed out of the labor force. Suddenly, a great emphasis was placed on the value of family life and the importance of white middle class women staying at home. These ideas were enforced not by law, but by social conditioning, a conditioning that was almost more severe than the constraints of the past. Women were deprived of any knowledge of their history and the long struggle for women’s rights. Many women were made to believe that the role of wife and mother stressed after the war was not only natural, but inevitable. Any dissatisfaction they felt with their domestic situations was ascribed to personal failure. Women thus became as firmly trapped by guilt as they had been by law.

Meanwhile, women of color struggled with multiple obstacles stemming from the intersection of social prejudices against their race, gender, and class. Most were consigned to labor and service jobs that denied them the upward mobility available to whites. Moreover, systemic racism continued to shape their experiences, a fact that most white feminists fail to grasp.

This is where the word feminist comes into play in the book. And in the year 2024, when women’s issues are so critical, how do you define feminism? And should it be redefined now or reconsecrated in a way?

Most people actually do not understand either feminism or the history of feminism. First, often the development of feminism in the West is attributed to Mary Wollstonecraft and her book, A Vindication of the Rights of Women. However, feminism goes back 500 years to Christine de Pizan’s The Book of the City of Ladies, which stimulated a Europe-wide discussion about the role of women in society.

The 19th century of course, kicked off a true feminist revolution. All of this has been erased. The contributions of the women’s suffrage movement have been erased. For example, when I was doing research on Susan B. Anthony and the suffrage movement and discovered the 1893 Woman’s Building, which was a showcase for women’s handiwork, craft, and arts for a world’s fair. Susan B. Anthony was so famous and so important that whenever she appeared in any of the openings or events of the Woman’s Building. People stood on chairs and cheered her. Men and women. By the time I read about Susan B. Anthony, she was a footnote in history.

Moreover, my own definition of the word feminist and feminism has evolved as I have grown as a woman and as an artist. When I started out, I was always, I guess one could say, a nascent feminist. But in the 1960s when I first began to try and talk about how my gender was negatively affecting my career as an artist, which I was aware of because of my father being a political activist. So I understood early on that what I was encountering was gender discrimination. But when I would try and bring it up, I would be asked, “What are you some kind of suffragette?” Because the word suffragette and suffragist had been demonized, just like the word feminist has been demonized today.

In the 1970s, when I set out to create a new form of art education that was relevant to women, because even today, art curricula is biased against women inherently. And to create a feminist art practice, I believed that feminism had to do with gender only. And women only. But I have come to understand that our version of feminism in the seventies was wrong. Feminism is not about gender. It’s about value. But because it starts with F-E-M, everybody thinks it’s about women. But feminism is basically a system of thought that dates back to Christine de Pizan that challenges the triangular structure of patriarchal society with white men at the top of the pinnacle and everybody else, white women, people of color, and animals of course, are in descending order in that pyramid, including the plane, which is to be used, exploited, and oppressed as men see fit.

And now I understand that women can be patriarchal and men can be feminist. It’s about seeing the world through a different lens and working towards justice and equity for everyone who shares this planet. As I said before, human and non-human. That is what feminism is. And feminist art, as I have defined it and enacted it, is art that makes those values clear.

How do you think women or anyone really could learn from these early freedom-fighting women?

Anyone. Including young protesters. During The Dinner Party days in the studio, we had what we called Thursday night potluck dinners. One of the things about working with women, even though there were men in The Dinner Party studios, you could always count on good potlucks.

Anyway, those were the nights we did a combination of consciousness-raising and education. We did not do formal consciousness-raising sessions. That is erroneous. I didn’t do it in my classes for the first feminist art program or subsequent feminist art programs because going around in the circle, which is a methodology that I learned from my father, in consciousness-raising involves not interrupting. And as the teacher in my classes, and as the artist whose project everyone was working on, I would interrupt in order to provide insights and education. We also did discussions on specific topics, and we did a night that was a discussion about feminism and the history of feminism for which there were assigned readings.

There’s a classic moment in The Dinner Party film created by Johanna Demetrakas that brought knowledge about The Dinner Party around the world and is one of the reasons people organized around the world after seeing it, to show the peace that everybody wanted to see and nobody wanted to show. And in that clip, I say, “I get really, really mad.” Because I was a very passionate and overly outspoken young woman. And I said, “Women are fucking ignorant and it pisses me off” because the participants in The Dinner Party studio displayed a level of ignorance in the face of having been assigned readings that infuriated me. And there were a lot of people who volunteered to work on The Dinner Party because they wanted to participate in a change. And yet, when offered the opportunity to learn how women and men before them had made change, they hadn’t read the books.

They’re like, “Oh, I think change can happen if everybody carries change in their hearts.” Or, “If individuals do the best they can personally to make change.” And similar, incredibly naive statements. And I instructed them to read these books so they would understand that every successful movement for change has involved study, learning from history, and the tedious work of building organizations that can fight for change. And what me pisses me off about the younger protest generation is their protests are built on none of that. They’re not built on an understanding of history. They’re not built on the tedious work of creating organizations. They’re built on sending out internet summons, everybody getting together and chanting slogans they don’t understand, and then posting them on Instagram and going home. And that is not how you make change. The 19th century suffrage movement created lasting institutional change. Young women enjoy the rights they do today because of the work of their foremothers and those men who participate did in those struggles. And there were men.

There were even men at the Seneca 1848 Convention, which has also been erased from history, because it is not in the patriarchal best interest to teach men that they have helped make change. It’s like how many of the young protesters know about the seventies and the Civil Rights Movement and the Feminist Movement and the Gay and Lesbian Movement and the Farm Workers Revolution and the Black Panthers and how they built organizations and how they came together in solidarity and how it took decades to create the changes they made, which are all being rolled back now.

That’s why Kamala Harris’s coming out, fighting and saying, “We will not go back,” is so important. And why People across culture, gender, race, religion, and political persuasion who do not want to go backwards, which is what Trump represents, have to come out and vote and support her even if it’s not as much fun as protesting and posting on Instagram.

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Part Four: The calling of the Apostles and Disciples

With these words, the goddess turned her gaze to the still whirling spiral, which was gradually descending. One by one, her apostles came, each one different, each one splendid. It took the goddess many hours to form every one into an image upon a plate. Some cooperated, a few rebelled, several pleaded to be released while others twisted and squirmed, but to no avail. All were held firmly in place upon the triangular table. And though there were some who were tormented and some who were dejected, they all understood that their sacrifices had been necessary for there is no apostleship without the acceptance of suffering, isolation, misunderstanding, and solitariness. Throughout the course of that long day and into the next, the women of the earth continued to gather in small groups. Some wept, some whispered, while others grew increasingly agitated.

And when the heavenly supper was prepared, the goddess spoke to the assembled women. I so loved the world that I gave my most beloved daughters, so it might be saved, but the world listened and listened and never understood. And they looked and looked and never saw. The world still feasts upon the body and blood of my apostles and disciples and continues to grow strong through their sacrifices and degradations. Oh, what a multitude of thoughts pass among the great crowd of women, some were full of anger, others full of joy. Some were moved to compassion and many lamented, but not a soul was left untouched. For 40 days and 40 nights they did not sleep nor thirst, nor taste human food, but debated all the strange and wondrous things they had beheld. They talked of the apostles and the disciples of their entrapment and their pain.

Some were proud of the apostles achievements, and of the past they could now recover. Some thought the disciples were foolish. Some believed that all men were to blame. Some said that the troubles were over. Some felt it was too hard to change. They talked about the great goddess for they were confused by her actions and words. Some thought that she must be evil. Others envisioned her as a sacred flower. Many said she should be exalted and they tried to fashion a throne. But most of the women argued that hierarchies should be brought down. They told of their lives as women shared secrets they’d never expressed. They revealed their doubts and their anger and their fear that what they felt was a sin. Some confessed their lives had no meaning. Some said their households drained their strength. Some admitted to feeling degraded. They asked questions and wondered why.

They broke their historic silence saying all they thought was taboo. They acknowledged their common condition and discussed what could be done. A few admitted they were frightened. Some never had been brave, but all urged all toward power and knew that it was not wrong. They talked about the world and the way it had been run. Some said that the planet was in danger and all agreed that this was true. Some suggested that their experiences as women had taught them to care and to give. Others, insisted only women could save the planet, for they could teach the world to share. Thought followed thought, and step by step led on.

And they raised their eyes and looked and lo they saw a vision and they heard the voice of one who spoke, “Come take possession of the world, which needs the wisdom you possess. Join hands and be as one, for your virtues transcend all that has divided nations and kings. Join hands and be as one for your virtues transcend all that has divided nations and kingdoms, clans and tribes. Protect the creatures of the planet and save the birds of the air. Make a league with all who have been degraded and break away from the rule of force. Share the abundance of the planet with those who are hungry. Give them drink when they are thirsty. Treat all as you would guests in your own households, for the compassion which you bring to your own children must reach out and embrace the earth.

And in one body, the women rose up and stood straight and tall and the energy flowed between them and washed over them like a tidal wave. And its force amazed them and they went forth to their destiny.

Tell me a bit about this chapter and what you were thinking about when you wrote it.

Well, I wrote it 50 years ago and it sort of poured out of me. It embodies everything I believe about what has to happen if we as a human race and the planet are to survive. And in the last chapter I talk about the fact that I don’t believe women can do this together by themselves. That it can only be done by men and women working together. We’ve all been taught this myth that it was competition that built the world. And actually that’s been disproven, although it is not widely known. It was collaboration that built this world and it will be collaboration that will save this world. The reason I got so emotional reading it is because this book represents my deepest beliefs and has shaped my entire career and my work, and my ability to hope in the face of so much despair all around us because without hope we are doomed.

But what we need now are leaders who cannot only say empty words, but who can turn them into actions and who can replace the model of two strong men getting together in the back room and solving problems which doesn’t work. Replace that model with strengthening the UN even though it is not a functional organization because it is the only structure we have on the planet through which nations can come together. And if we don’t do it, we all know what the outcome is going to be. Do we have leaders who are strong enough to say this? Do we have leaders who are strong enough to go up against the values that have shaped our entire world, that people don’t even understand they’ve internalized and enact and enable? We made this world and we can change this world.

And this chapter mentions taboos. I’m wondering what do you think is taboo today when discussing women’s rights, civil rights, social justice?

First of all, they’re taken as if each one was a singular problem and they’re not. They’re all intertwined. They’re all part of a system of global injustice and oppression around the planet. The other taboo is crossing beyond one’s individual self. The idea, for example, that I am not allowed to make an image of Black people’s experiences even though I’ve seeped myself in their history because I am not Black. That goes against everything we know about art because art has always been the one form that can bridge separation. And the idea you cannot say this or that, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, that goes against everything we know about what is productive for society, which is civil discourse. And disagreement and allowing a diversity of viewpoints. And the other thing is taboo is the deep feelings of shame women have still about their bodies.

Like my husband was telling me a story about an article he had just read of the New Yorker about a woman, a chemist. She worked at 3M and her family, they were kind of a company family. She was made to feel ashamed of what she had discovered, and so it remained hidden for years. That shame, we have to overcome that shame and guilt and we have to speak from our hearts. Men have to begin to talk about the damage that has been done to them by patriarchal values. Being set off to war, to kill, to maim, to be maimed in the absence of better solutions and collaboration on the planet.

Parents who lose their children in the service of some sort of abstract patriotism. Men who are forced to work at jobs they hate because they won’t share the burden of work and support with their partners or the burdens of childcare and elder care. We have to replace the values on the planet with a whole different system. Can we do it? I don’t know. I can only hope. It won’t happen in my lifetime, but I’ve dedicated my life to trying to make a contribution to that change.

There’s also a hint of environmental justice here and climate change of course. How important is that in your thinking and how does it overlap in your mind with these other topics?

It’s part of the whole hierarchy I discussed about patriarchy and how feminism is aimed at dismantling that structure. The idea that we have dominance over the earth, that men have dominance over women, that human beings have dominance over other creatures and the planet instead of understanding that we are part of a giant, miraculous global structure where every part is essential. And instead of respecting that and standing in awe of it and working to protect it, our idea that we can exploit it and oppress it, it’s like Donald and I did a series when we were working on the Holocaust project called Nuclear Wasted.

It was about the consequences of the nuclear industry on people everywhere from the downwinders here in New Mexico to the Japanese who endured Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And as part of that, we visited the WIPP site, which is a nuclear storage facility in Southern New Mexico. Our attitude is we can insert this toxic material into the earth as if it were an inert being, instead a living structure. That is a perfect embodiment of the kind of thinking that has led our planet to the brink of destruction.

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Part Five: Visions of the Apocalypse

Oh, man of the world. Hear us. Assemble all of you and listen, Nevermore shall you treat us in the old ways for we have seen a vision. As each woman returned to her own family, she was greeted by the rage of the men. “Where have you been?” they demanded. “We have witnessed a miracle,” responded the women, “And we have been reborn.” But the men did not hear them. So accustomed were they to not listening when women spoke? “How could you have stayed away so long?” they asked bitterly, “Do you not know that your place is here with us?” “Our place is everywhere,” answered the women. “That is what we have learned.” “But your children are hungry,” shouted the men. “Your households are in disrepair and we have need of you in our beds.”

“Oh, men of the world hear us,” so spoke every woman in every dwelling, “Assemble all of you and listen. Nevermore shall you treat us in the old ways for we have seen a vision. We are joined together to announce to you new things, hidden things that you have not known. Before this day you had not heard of them nor had most of us until the great goddess gathered us before her making a sign of her apostles and disciples for all to see. From them have we learned how you have denied us. Through them have we seen our own pain? Now we tell you there should no longer be heard the sound of women weeping for we are determined that henceforth we shall be like to like in all things. The time has come when you will lord it over us no more. Nevermore will you have dominion over the world nor over the growing things, nor over the living creatures either. For as you have lorded it over women, so you have lorded it over all life.

If only you harken to our directives, your well-being will flow like a river for your waste and desolate places will be restored. The land that you have ravished will be pure again and there will be abundance enough for all. Those who are hungry will eat. And those who are thirsty will drink without price. Children shall not be brought forth for destruction. Nevermore shall any go unloved for they will have two parents to nourish them, nor will you continue to practice war. For we shall lift the spear and the sword from the land. Gather together with us at less. Listen that we may live again. Share with us all the tasks and burdens of this world and we shall create a new heaven and a new Earth and make of your wilderness an Eden once again.”

And this chapter ends on a high note of sorts, kind of like a goal for humanity, if you will. Tell me a bit about how you see your book coming to a conclusion, and what did you want to accomplish with the end of the book?

Well, when I was young, of course, as I told you, I had the hubris of youth, which meant I had incredibly unrealistic expectations. It was like I wanted to teach the whole world about women’s history, and now I feel grateful that I have been able to teach millions of people around the world about women’s history and that the permanent housing of the dinner party means that for decades to come, people will be able to learn about women’s history. So, I’ve modified my goals as my long-term weaver Audrey Cowan used to say, “I’ve been mugged by reality.”

I hope that people will accept my vision not as something we will ever see come to pass, but as something to work for a better world like my father told me, taught me was my mandate to work towards a better world, which has given my life meaning. And I believe it explains the meaning in my work that, for example, has people going to the Serpentine in London staying for several hours and sometimes weeping. Because many years ago when Donald and I were working on the Holocaust project, we went to see Elie Wiesel speak. I of course had been studying him, and at the end of his lecture he took questions. It was at a university.

And at one point in the questions he looked up and he said, “How is it that I, who have survived the worst humanity can do, have hope? And you, young people with your lives ahead of you, have so little?” So I hope people will come away with it with a sense that all is not lost, that one person can make a difference, that they can make a difference, and they will devote their lives to something meaningful like making the world a better place with whatever means they have.

And if a young woman or an art student today read this book for the first time, cover to cover, what would you want that person to take away from it? This might overlap with what you had just said, but what lessons do you think should linger in their mind?

I would like to address this to all art students. We have managed care in New Mexico. Managed care is to medicine like the art market is to art. Art is one of the highest callings in my estimation, the arts. It’s the deepest way we as human beings can communicate with each other across gender, race, religion, geography. It’s like Nadya, one of the founders of Pussy Riot and I connected across generation, across geography, across culture. Because unlike many young people, she believes in hope. She’s working for revolution and she’s infusing her art with those goals. Young people today, young artists today are encouraged to make art for the art market. They’re encouraged to make product. I encountered this in one of the galleries I was with for a while, a high-end gallery. I’d never been with them before. And basically what they wanted me to do was turn out art that I had made that was successful from the seventies, and I’m like, “You have got to be kidding me.”

Art for me is a journey of discovery. I never set out to do hugely long multi-year projects. I get interested in a subject and I follow it to its ultimate conclusion, which is a body of art on that subject that is deeply researched, deeply thought through. I like to tell this story about how when I was working on the dinner party, this is how stupid I was as a young woman in terms of the art market. There was a lovely woman in LA who was a collector, and we used to have a lot of visits in the studio and she saw a test plate because it was so difficult to get the three-dimensional plates out through the kiln that we often did many versions hoping we’d get one. So, she saw me painting one of the test plates and she said, “God, that’s beautiful. I’d like to buy it.” You know what I said? I said, “You dare to equate my art with money.” That pretty well sums up my career.

Thank you to Judy Chicago, her husband Donald, as well as to Ron and Harry for making this episode happen. The editor of The Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don’t forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter, The Grand Tourist Curator at thegrandtourist.net. And follow me on Instagram @danrubinstein. And don’t forget to follow The Grand Tourist on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you’d like to listen and leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Till next time!

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