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Axel Vervoordt: The Man Who Made Antiques Cool

One of the most respected names in design speaks on how he turned a former distillery into a world-class fine art destination, and what music you might hear when you visit him at home.

February 15, 2023 By THE GRAND TOURIST
Photo: Jan Liégeois, Courtesy Axel Vervoordt


Antiques dealer, art dealer, curator, interior designer, tastemaker: Belgian polymath Axel Vervoordt is one of the most respected names in design. On this episode, Dan speaks with Vervoordt on how he started selling objects as a teen, how he turned a former distillery into a world-class fine art destination called Kanaal, and what music you might hear when you visit him at home.

Listen to this episode


Axel Vervoordt: I hated things that were over-restored and over-varnished or over-gilded. I want everything in the original condition. It’s the time itself that is also an artist. And I think an old piece that’s patinated stays almost contemporary. Once people try to restore it, over-restore it, you put it back in their story and it loses a lot of the energy, I think.

Dan Rubinstein:  Hi, I’m Dan Rubinstein and this is The Grand Tourist. I’ve been a design journalist for nearly 20 years, and this is my personalized guided tour through the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food, and travel. All the elements of a well-lived life.

My guest today is an icon at the very top of his game. Throughout his long and still thriving career, he’s become the ultimate art and design multi-hyphenate antique steel art dealer, interior designer, and curator. Most of all, he’s blended these disciplines together so well that he’s managed to influence and elevate the modern trajectory of them all, Axel Vervoordt.

Axel was a Belgian wunderkind of sorts, at least in the world of antiques. He was born in 1947 in Antwerp. His father was a horse trader. Even today, Axel remains an avid rider. And he began selling antiques in his teens. And by his twenties he was renovating dilapidated architectural spaces.

Even in the groovy, late mid-century modernism and age of the 1960s, he had a knack for taking old rustic and unloved objects and selling them like works of high art. The same goal for his interiors. From then till today, Axel is probably most known for his ability to take a sparsely decorated home with nary a drop of color in sight, and make them into desirable locales, considered the height of luxury.

So much of what we think of today as Belgian Cool was influenced and created by Axel. In the mid-’80s he acquired a massive amount of Chinese porcelain from a discovered shipwreck called the Hatcher Cargo, where he once again changed the antiques game. Not by selling the most rare or extravagant things per se, but by using his eye and curatorial skills to sell a look, a feeling, a narrative.

Sound familiar? More on that later.

In the 1980s, he also purchased a castle outside of Antwerp that sorely needed a redo and restored most of it to its regal glory, while other spaces were designed to be quiet and minimal. He still lives there today.

And in the late ’90s, he purchased a massive former factory in Antwerp and slowly transformed it into what is known today as Kanaal, a temple of sorts to art and design where you’ll find works by the likes of Anish Kapoor and James Turrell. It’s part gallery, part museum, all Axel Vervoordt.

Today he runs his business with the aid of his sons and their spouses. It’s a true family affair.

I caught up with Axel from his, well, castle to discuss his days as the enfant terrible of antiques, how he developed his unique sensibilities, and what kind of music you might hear when popping by for a visit.

Your personal story and career is so intertwined with Belgium and the built environment. What do you remember as a kid in the ’50s in Antwerp? What was it like?

As a child, I always loved Antwerp. It was a period they teared down a lot of the beautiful medieval houses and quarters. There was very long time, more Socialists, Burgermeisters. And they wanted more social living. And they didn’t want too many old restored houses because old restored houses were was not for the people they needed to want to live in the city. So a lot was demolished and this was very sad.

And my mother, this was when I was six or seven already. She tried to save beautiful medieval houses. And she bought them and then restored them together with artist friends. And I love that to save things and saving the old houses and being inspired by the real old houses and doing it with a limited budget because my father didn’t always want to pay enough money to restore it all completely. But this made it more interesting.

So, she gave it to artists who could live in it. So, we had the contact with the artist and contact with the materials and contact with beautiful potters and sculptors. And I have a wonderful memory of that.

And your mother, was she a designer more? Or is she more real estate?

Not at all. No, no. My father was a horse dealer. He was a very good, very knowledgeable. And he sold almost like sometimes 100 horses a week. So, we had the import.

But my mother never worked. But she most made the house look nice. She always put the right flowers. She had received the clients of my father at home. And we always had a very cozy house. A small house, which was built in the garden of my grandparents. But after the war, my parents wanted to live in a smaller house with no staff and something very cozy.

And I’m fascinated by your father’s dealing as a horse trader. Were they race horses? Or were they more—

No. Everything besides race horses. It would’ve been for jumping, for dressage. Also for the port because in those days they were still selling lots of heavy Brabant horses to work in the port of Antwerp for the boats, and also the breweries had horses. And he had an amazing knowledge of horses. He could hear a horse and say, “Oh, this horse is irregular on the backside left,” by hearing it, even not without seeing it. And he was very gifted.

There was a time I thought I might have to take over that business. But then I realized I never was as gifted for horses as my father. Then, I was very interested in art, in artists. And I was making things myself as well. And I was always at Jesuit College from my first year to seven years until 18. And then went to university.

And I heard that you bought a trunk or something as young as 15 years old when you started collecting.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

What was that trunk like? Did you get a good price for it?

No. That was because as I was interested in contemporary art, and I also liked old art. I always liked old art and the warmth of old art. But I also was looking for old art that almost looked contemporary. And the contemporary art was inspiring me how to look at old art. And I was always likely to find things that are very reversal, that in a way were already invented by the old.

And it was a morning, I saw an exhibition of Tinguely, the mobile figures. And I love that. And this was in this early ‘60s. But that was 60,000 Belgian francs, because it was Tinguely. And I couldn’t afford that when I was so young.

And the same day I discovered this trunk. It completely in iron. It was a safe trunk. And one lock moved eight locks, one key. One key. It was like a mobile. And to me, it was like the mobile of the 17th century, which I could buy then for 10 times less, for 6,000 francs.

Okay. What did they keep in a trunk that was so valuable that it had eight locks and one key?

I think on ships, gold or treasures and money, whatever, silver. Yes.

So, it was a serious trunk.

Yes. Yes.

It was not something you would have in a bedroom with some blankets and stuff.

No. No, no, no. I think it was in ships, mainly used to move valuable things. I still have the trunk.

Oh, you do?

Yeah, sure. Yes.

And when you were that young and interested in these collecting things like that, what did your family think? It sounds like your mother was very supportive.

My mother loved it. And my father was not so interested. He thought I was spending more money than I was investing. But he only realized I was investing when I was 20, I think or 21 already. Because then I made some money already.

And I think there’s a property that at 21, such a young man, that you were renovating. And it’s a home, I think, in an alley that I think your son now lives in.

No, it’s a bit bigger than that. I finished my [inaudible 00:09:07] college course 18. Then I went to university and studied economics. Because my father always said, “If you want to be a collector, you need to have a good business that you make enough money to have a good collection.”

Meantime, I was already buying and selling to the friends of my parents. I had some money already. But then I found this economic study so boring. And I said I‘m  going to do a sabbatical year.

And in those days, we still had to go to the army. So, I go to the army. But I say to the army, “Do I really have to come to the army? Because I will never kill anybody. Not even, not an enemy.” But they put me in the pharmacy for curing the people.

But very quickly I turned the pharmacy into a kind of operative bar. I had in my pharmacy also gin bottles and martini. And then I met lots of people. And everybody asked, “There’s nothing for sale in your grandfather’s attic? Or your parents?”

And I bought amazing things. Even a painting of Magritte. I bought a very famous painting of Magritte, La Memoir. I bought fantastic 18th century silver. I bought many things. So, I was making already some money.

But I also found when I was 16…At 14, I went to first time to England because to buy on buying trips for buying antiques and things which I changed my room. But then I sold it quickly. All the friends of my parents, they want. And they were all phoning me. Can we get more? And so every school holiday I went on buying trips.

And then at the Army I decided after I bought the painting of Magritte, now I’m going to make a business of it. I stopped my university studies. And I want to be a real art dealer and was fascinated by it.

And then I said to my mother, but I never would like to have a shop. I would like to deal from a home. And then because I only will buy things I love myself. I want to live with them first and then sell them. And then, in a way, selling is more sharing with other people. Because once you have loved something, you have possessed it, it’s enough for me. I don’t need to continue to possess it.

And then my mother, with her bike, she went around the old city always looking for the old houses. And she said, “There’s a beautiful medieval street from the 15th, 16th century that’s for sale. You might buy one or two houses there.” And it belonged to two very old ladies. And I went to the ladies and tried to buy it. And then they said, “No, we sell the whole street or nothing.” But I was only 21. After thinking, then I decided to buy the whole street.

Wow. What did they think when a 21-year-old man said, “I want to buy the whole street?”

I think that I looked much older. They didn’t realize I was 21, I think.

But it was a very good contact with the two old ladies. One was 87. The other one, 92. They never wanted to go there. They inherited from their parents. And they never went there because there’s a bad quarter of Antwerp. It was the center. But it was really very bad quarters.

And so then I restored it. And there were still very old people living in it, but I gave all tasks to all the old people. They all kept living there until they died. Which was very nice.


And I’m curious. When you had your antiques business and you’re a young man and the antiques business can be tough and very competitive with lots of other dealers. What was that business like back then?

Yes. Most dealers were very classical. And I like to mix very useful things, things made from farmers, extremely simple. To mix it with very important Renaissance pieces.

Was anyone doing that at the time back then? Or were you—

Nobody. Nobody. And I was very criticized by classical colleagues. But I continued doing it, even at big fairs. But I was quite young, in my 30s. The youngest art dealer then, where I’m invited to the Grand Palais in Paris for the big Biennale. And there I made very important clients.

And it was a long story. It was the [foreign language 00:15:16] came to my place in Antwerp. And he loved everything I did. And he said, “You should have a good booth in Paris for the Biennale.” Then I had good beautiful things already from England. Had great collectors of so many things, important families. I had fantastic royal silver.

But I also always had interested in very meditative art. Oriental, Japanese. Things that are extremely silent. I always liked the two ways. And I still is living like that as well. I like the very baroque energy of life, but I also like very silent, very serene. But always warm, never dogmatic. And these two combinations.

And this was then in ’82, my first Biennale. I brought all my beautiful things and I organized it with a little bit of decoration. And I put my Asiatic things apart, and my baroque styles somewhere else and whatever.

And then I realized that all the other deals were making amazing decorations and booth and niches and all that. I was so disappointed. I think my booth going to look terrible. It’s going to look from a little boy in the country in Belgium. They will hate it in Paris. And I was so disappointed, so depressed.

I went outside on the lawn. Fell asleep like a [foreign language 00:16:49]. Sleeping on the ground for two, four hours. And I came back in the Biennale, and I saw all this booth from the colleagues. I thought they would become fantastic. I thought they were horrible. They put material, wallpaper, over-decorated. And there’s no spirit anymore.

And in that day I didn’t know the word loft. But then I took all my decoration away, everything I took. I left a concrete floor. I left no decoration, but beautiful things. Mixed my Asiatic things with the baroque things. And I love that. I think I’m going to do it perhaps once. Nobody might like it, but I’m going to make a booth like an artist would do it. He just mix it. And he wants the energy of everything. And this was a huge success.

And you sold. You sold well.

We sold well. Nureyev bought all the leather covered. He became a client afterwards. Valentino bought things. The Getty Museum bought things. It was amazing. All the Rothschild family. It was amazing. The important clients I had then at that young age after that fair, which looked like a loft.

Wow, amazing. And I’m curious. You mentioned art from Asia seems to be so important in your career. But when did that work from Asia first was introduced to you? Was it—

Quite soon. I was attracted. But mainly also through my friend Jef Verheyen, the ZERO artist who was very good friends with Dr. Macken. And he was the collector of Asian art, very early Asian art. And beautiful early sculpture and screens and calligraphy. And he made me understand what the difference between Chinese, Korean, and Japanese.

And I was very fascinated by that. And there’s a big love of Oriental art. And I did read books about it, about Zen philosophy and all that. Very quickly, I was very attracted by that. It’s always. Still now.


In 1984, Axel made a singular purchase that made him a star in the world of arts and antiques. He acquired a massive part of the Hatcher Cargo, a treasure trove of about 25,000 pieces of Ming Dynasty porcelain from a 17th century shipwreck off the coast of what is today Jakarta. He later exhibited the pieces in new and exciting ways, transforming these lost decorative objects into desirable contemporary treasures. I wanted to get the inside story on how and why he decided to take this risk.

I was not so interested in blue and white Chinese porcelain. I thought it was even a bit bourgeois, but not so much my taste.

But I had a very good American client from Dallas. My big, really important client. It was also early ’80s in Dallas with a huge house and they bought all the best quality artworks. And she came especially over for the sale Amsterdam of [inaudible 00:21:41]. I never heard of it.

And I went with her to the sale. And I saw this Hatcher collection and I loved it. Because it was 300 years under the sea water, so it was less shiny, it was a bit matte. And then I saw it was painted like Zen calligraphy. Very spontaneous, very quick without thinking, just like that. Even the back of the plates were like Zen painting. And I fell in love with that type of blue and white China.

What year was that, did the ship sink?


Ah, okay. And how many pieces were in that? Because it looks like there were tiny ones, right? Big pieces, little pieces.

There were about 12,000 pieces and I bought 7,600. It’s huge. Because I started buying. But then I had two of my assistants, art [inaudible 00:22:42], who went to check all the collection. And instead of having a lot of 100 pieces, there’s 80 good ones and 20 bad ones. And there’s another, there’s 80 bad ones and only 10 medium and 10 good ones.

I tried to buy all the good lots. But everybody knew that I was very well documented and knew what the sale was. So, I tried to buy in the beginning. But I saw everybody was imitating and I didn’t want to see this China all over in all the places. So I want to have a little bit of monopoly of it and to launch it the right way.

And then when I bought it, the good lots, I did buy very discreetly and nobody saw it. And the bad lots I first put on my hands very high. And so everybody thought he would love that. Then they all bought that. So it was a big game we loved very much.

And then my American client said, “You buy the pair numbers. I buy the unpair.” But if she does want to pair one, I bought it as well. So, we made a lot of fun.

And tell me about the castle that you still have, I’m sure? Yeah. Yeah. You still live there.

We still live there. I’m there now. Yes.

And it was a castle that I think was not sold for a very, very long time. It never changed hands. Can you tell me about it?

When we bought it in 1984, the other time it was sold was 1729. It’s always been in one family, in one hand. But at the end they were 42 inheritants, and not one person could buy it all.

But what’s so beautiful, we have beautiful park around, the grounds around. It’s still quite big and close to the city, which makes it unique. And it did already exist in 1108 and has been transformed.

Who built it originally?

That we don’t even know. It was already existing in 1108. That’s oldest time it’s been mentioned. And we know until 1360 who lived here.

And what was the condition like when you purchased it?

When I bought Little Street was like a ruin. And I made of a ruin something beautiful. And this was very exciting. The castle was in good condition but bad taste.

How so?

I didn’t like the castle at all inside. I loved the property, loved the gardens and trees, and that was unique. But it had been changed a lot in the ‘60s with cheap material, formica, and plastic, and really ugly.

And I came with a good friend who knows the property dealer to see what he thinks of the value. He thinks it’s good, but what can you do with that castle? He didn’t like the castle at all. I’d say, “I don’t like the castle either, but I’ll make something nice of it.”

And it really became great home. But it’s a lot of work. But it was still maintained but we had to change a lot.

Why did you decide to not pursue interiors and things like that full time? And keep this nice mix?

I’m so interested and excited by art and artists. I think that’s my leading point. Because I don’t like the word “decoration.” It’s, for me, too superficial. It’s a search for harmony. And I love architecture. And all my life I studied also sacred geometry and the proportions. And I find it about that something you feel. You don’t even see but you feel it. It’s a lot about that.

It’s not a vision of a decorator who wants to make it please nice. And with the curtains. I love the curtains to be very, almost you don’t see them. They belong to everything. And it’s the attention is more the art and the people. It’s a different vision. And that’s what now I think more and more people like.

And we have a lot of work. And I still work very hard. And I love to work hard. And I prefer that to holidays so I don’t mind. Yes.


We touched upon this already, but there seems to be a shift in aesthetic over the years towards I guess what we could call a more of a Zen look. Is that right?

For me, there’s not a change. But I think the more Zen pieces are more published. But if you come and see a home, like now I’m sitting in my office, it’s very classical with a lot of family souvenirs. And I love this atmosphere for working.

Like the Zen atmosphere, I like to do nothing, or reading an interesting book, or some meditative music. It’s different. But I like these two lives together.

And I realized that now more and more of my younger clients, they want back this warmth. They don’t want a very minimal, cold interiors anymore.

But I always like both in the house. The most beautiful room, I would make very Zen because architecture is so beautiful that you don’t have to add too much. Just a few works of art.

But then I love a full library with your books, with lots of object, with beautiful things. But also with ugly things to receive from nice people. You want to have to give them a place. And then I always love a very welcoming kitchen. When your kids come home, they can open the fridge, they can have a drink, and everybody’s welcome.

So, I like a house with different…Depends your mood. Different atmospheres in one house. Those are my favorite houses.

And when it comes to Kanaal, this massive project that took I think over 10 years to really complete—

It’s never complete. Things are never completed.

That’s true. It began with a factory, if I’m correct, right? That was the first piece of property that you purchased there?

No, it was an old factory that stopped. It was a brewery that made the malt for all the beer of Heineken beer. It was a whole complex, a whole street that started in 1830. And still until 1960 they built big silos in it.

But our warehouse became too small, our workshops became too small, so we needed more space. Even after the castle, because we moved from the city to the castle. It was become too small again. And we had to go to industrial park. We decided we’re going to buy their land and build a factory.

But every time I went there, I hated it. I said I never want to come here. I don’t feel at home. And at once one of these big industrial old buildings of 1830 was put for sale and I went to buy it immediately.

And then even my sons were not so happy in the beginning. They said there might be building permissions and all big problem. I said, “It doesn’t matter. We are going to make something beautiful and they will never destroy it.”

And then it took us 10 years to buy the old streets. And then my second son is in real estate. He transformed it and we have a hundred apartments and museums and things like that.

When you first purchased those buildings, did you think of it as destination? Now, if you read any design guide or any tourism guide to the city, it is mentioned. It is now a destination. Did you think about it as a destination in that way?

I always do my best in everything I do. I always want to make the best of it. But I never think that long. I’m know that the long vision will come anyway. But you have to live now, I think. And make of now the best all the time. And listen a lot to your intuition. That’s, to me, very important. My intuition will say, “This is a good choice.” I want to work for it. I want to work further on it.

And there’s such a strong sense of programming and planning with the museum and everything like that. If you were to say, when someone comes to visit this space, what do you want people to feel when they are in that space? What is your goal? Because you spoke about sacred geometries and things like that.

I think they feel it, the sacred geometry, which is very present there. And also the presence of natural materials. A lot of walls are made with hemp and real lime plaster. Something you don’t see but you feel.

And all the art is very peaceful, contemporary art or old art. I never have art of destruction and war. It’s all very peaceful. And that also I think works on the mood of the people.

And there’s one of the first big pieces Anish Kapoor made is a special house for it. And then Turrell made a chapel. It’s all about universal art. And things that are more that you feel than you can see. And always very peaceful. It’s never war. Never consternation. Never political. Never want to be better than the others. It is just what it is.

And today the business is quite big and has lots of different arms. Can you tell the listeners how your business is set up today? Because your family is involved, and your son Boris is involved?

Yes. It’s a holding of several businesses. And I’m extremely lucky to have two very gifted sons. And there’s many things they know a lot better than I can. I do my best in my way. And Boris is very good in organizing all business. I don’t. Already, for many years, I don’t deal with organization, with new staff, with financial. He does that.

And my second son, he runs real estate. And I thought also he would do something else. But he runs that and he did real estate management. And his wife is also architect and also a real estate financial specialist. And they developed this fantastically.

So, it’s still one family business. And I think everybody is very good together. And everybody’s respect for each other’s differences. Because we’re all different. Different moods, different loves. But at the end is the same strengths. There’s something very common, but there’s lots of respect for each other’s freedom.

Did your kids always want to be a part of the business? Or did your sons always?

No. Boris. Boris, when he was seven already he followed and he wanted to do everything I did. My second son, he hated everything I did. So, he wanted to go and study in Canada because he loved ice hockey. And he wanted to go and live in this country where’s lots of ice. And he was very good in ice hockey.

And then one day he came back. I thought he would be lost for all. He would marry somebody there. And one day he came back and he say, “Daddy, if you want, I want to build the family business.” I was so happy. And he said, “But then if you don’t do the real estate because I can see you have no time for it anymore.” And this is how it started.

And then he went in evening course, went to study real estate management. He very quickly became president of it. And he started working as a help mason to knew all the mentality of all the masons and all that.

That’s great. And I heard that your son Boris presented to you…You told a story once that when he was seven years old that he put on a little fair.

True. Yes.

What did he sell and did you get a good price?

No. The thing is, in the beginning with my wife, we were the first in importing contemporary Italian furniture to mix with our antiques, which we did in the ’60s. So it was quite new.

But the problem like [inaudible 00:36:48], there were several pieces I liked a lot. But there were also things I really didn’t like, with gilded and metal and too decorative. And I couldn’t sell anything I didn’t like myself. So we ended up with a big stock of contemporary furniture that cost a lot.

And one evening I was telling to my wife and my son of seven years was listening. And I said, “It’s such a shame we have for 2 million contemporary furniture here. If I would’ve bought antiques,” I said, “it would be worth so much more today. It’s so stupid. What can we do? We can’t get rid of it.”

And he heard on the radio that there was a fair. And you could bring anything you wanted. And with his first class writing, he did invite our friends and family for his fair. And he wanted to give this as a surprise. We didn’t know that. And it was called, [foreign language 00:37:45], The Junk Lands. And I was building up our business. How can we go on a Junk Land exhibition? That’s impossible.

And then my mother, she came and said, “Your son is genius.” You should be. And I will hire a little carrionette, little van. I will help him. So my mother helped him. And he sold a lot. It was amazing.

Wow. What did a seven-year-old do with the money? That’s what I want to know.

Thing is I said, you can get 10% of everything you sell. And then when he sold it, I remember he sold 68,000 Belgian francs. Those days was more than today. And I gave him 6,800 and he starts crying. I thought I didn’t get to 6,800. And he’d the rest.

And then my mother said, you’re leaving with his [inaudible 00:38:47]. I said, no, no. He has to learn it in the way he should do.

And you gave an interview once where you said that if you were stopped at the airport at customs and they said what your profession is, you wouldn’t exactly know how to answer.

I still don’t know. I don’t know. I say art dealer now. But it is different than most art dealers. So I do a lot of architecture now as well. Because I’m so busy with sacred architecture and the art of proportions and all that. So we have a lot of beautiful architecture projects as well which I do together with other architects.

So, it’s a lot of things. I love music as well.

What do you listen to? What does Axel Vervoordt listen to?

More Classical music. Yes.

Yeah? Like who? What kind of—

Depends. Again, there, I like Bach. And Beethoven and Mozart I love very much. But I also like opera. And I just listened to Rosenkavalier of Strauss, and I was really thrilled by it. And I also like contemporary music. I like jazz, but I don’t know jazz so well. I love it when I hear it. But I will never put it myself.

I think I understand what you mean. It’s a whole world unto itself.

Yeah. But classical music, I know immediately who is the composer. I even hear who’s singing it or playing it very often. This, I have a great feeling for it. But for jazz, I like it, but without knowing.

And if someone came to you and said, “I’m about to curate my first show, right? I have a new business and I’m about to curate my first show,” what piece of advice would you give them?

Be as genuine as possible. Believe extreme what you do. Don’t copy anything else. But share something that you believe in very strongly and that’s not known enough. So make them discover something that you discovered and make this. Share it.

As the business expands and you speak to your sons, I’m sure, about where things should go. Where do you think your family business should go in the next decade, let’s say?

I don’t know. They should be free as well. They will create it themselves. So we create the foundation for the art collection and they can still see what they can do with it. And the rest, I’ll see.

The third generation, the grandchildren, I don’t know if there will be that passionate. I’m extremely passionate of everything I do. Like my father was with his horses. That’s why I didn’t take over his horse business. He was much more passionate with horse than I was. I was more passionate in art. It’s possible they do something else.

My second son, he is much more interested in real estate, but he doesn’t do real estate I like. He do big projects. And he’s very budget minded. And I can’t even look at it because taste looks poor and it’s very expensive. There’s the opposite that the real estate people. Well, it should not cost much, but it should look expensive.

I guess my last question. If I asked Axel Vervoordt, what is beauty?

For me, it’s harmony. The most important I think is harmony. There’s a oneness feeling with everything. And it’s very peaceful and it’s very inspiring. It’s very human. And it expresses a very positive energy.

A special thanks to Axel Vervoordt, and to Anne-Sophie Dusselier and Magda Gregorian for making this episode happen. The editor of The Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, please follow me on Instagram @danrubinstein to learn more. And sign up with your email for updates at And don’t forget to follow The Grand Tourist on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen and leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Til next time.

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