A Family Affair: Sophie Ashby and Charlie Casely-Hayford

TRANSCRIPT

Charlie Casely-Hayford: Quite often within the creative industries there’s this facade that we’re all smashing it and what I respect and love in terms of the relationship I have with my wife is that we can have those exchanges. We kind of pull one another up because it, you know, is challenging at times and I think because we live and breathe it, it doesn’t feel like work. I know a lot of couples who just actively choose not to talk about work as soon as they get home. That’s not the case for us, is it?

Dan Rubinstein: Hi, I’m Dan Rubinstein and this is The Grand Tourist. I’ve been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour through the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food, and travel. All the elements of a well-lived life.

In the design world, we’re quite accustomed to dynamic power couples who work together, many of whom have been on this very podcast. But sometimes these couples don’t even work together at all, but that doesn’t mean one’s creativity doesn’t impact the other. My guests today are, as we say in the States, like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Two great tastes that taste great together. London’s Sophie Ashby and Charlie Casely-Hayford. Sophie was raised between the UK and South Africa and studied in London and New York before starting her very own design practice, Studio Ashby.

Through the firm’s delightfully colorful, warm, and inventive interiors, she’s quickly made headway into the world of interior design. Last year, she debuted her first monograph with Rizzoli with a forward by Amy Astley, the head of Architectural Digest. She also recently launched Sister, her own brand of furniture, lighting, and accessories.

Charlie, on the other hand, is a dashing rogue in the world of fashion and British tailoring. He launched his own menswear brand at a young age along with his late father, the noted designer Joe Casely-Hayford OBE. He also comes from a long line of UK trailblazers, which we’ll get into.

His company’s elegantly restrained menswear is something that perhaps 007 would wear on a first date to a three-Michelin-starred restaurant. He’s dressed names like John Legend, David Beckham, and Benedict Cumberbatch. And recently, the former editor of British Vogue, Edward Enninful, for this year’s Met Gala, which of course had the theme of Black dandyism.

I caught up with Sophie and Charlie from London to chat about their unique pasts, how the two met, Sophie’s non-profit that spurs needed change in the design industry, how men are dressing in this new post-pandemic age, what’s next for their dynamic careers, and more.

Sophie, you grew up, I think, between South Africa and the UK. I was wondering if you could describe your childhood home. Was it a creative one?

Sophie Ashby: It was a creative one. There were quite a few of them, which is how I came to be a designer, I think, because I just became very interested in, really, homes and the power they hold, and making you feel comfortable and safe and at home in a new place.

Yeah, so South Africa and the UK, we moved around quite a lot within the UK. So there was a stint in London, and then there was a stint in South Africa, and then there was a stint in Devon in the southwest, and now my parents are in Portugal as of the last 15 years.

What kept your family moving around?

SA: My mom is South African, and I think much of it was this quest for a life in nature and a life outdoors. We got off to a good start when we moved to South Africa. In Devon, we lived in a very rural part, and it was very beautiful.

Now in Portugal, they spend their life outside, living in a very rural area. So she was just after that for a long time. They liked moving and doing up houses, and there were a series of logical reasons that they had to justify all the moving, but it wasn’t like my dad was in the army or anything more common.

Okay, I thought I was going to ask. I was going to ask. And as a kid, what was your preoccupation? What were you like as a kid?

SA: I was the arty kid. So my sister was the sporty kid, and I was the arty one. And I was sort of gentle and calm and the elder of the two of us at home, and I think maybe quite sensible, but very creative and loved being outside. Yeah, I had a wonderful childhood.

And Charlie, tell me a little bit about yourself and sort of like where you grew up, because your family has such a rich history in the UK. And for those listening, maybe they’re in the US, like may not have any idea. Before we talk about your own personal history, tell me a little about your family history.

CCH: Sure. Well, firstly, we are a family business. Family is everything for us. So until my father passed away, around five years ago now, I worked with both my mum and my dad, my entire adult career, which has been incredible and challenging, as you can imagine.

But yeah, I guess, in terms of my family history, I mean, where to begin, really. It’s always a bit odd reflecting on one’s family history, I think, because I’m very conscious not to kind of put everyone on a pedestal, because I think it has, I think my sister and I were always concerned, it would put a lot of pressure on us in terms of achievements and what we need to do as a next generation. 

My great grandfather, who was called J. E. Casely Hayford, was not only kind of a remarkable lawyer and politician, but he was also a writer. He wrote a novel called Ethiopia Unbound, which is one of the first works of fiction to be written in English by an African. And it’s actually still incredibly relevant today in terms of its topics of, you know, identity, race, self determination.

And then his missus, Adelaide, was kind of championing women’s education in Ghana, long before it was, I guess, even a conversation in most parts of the world. We’ve actually got a book in the store called An African Victorian Feminist, which is all about Adelaide. And it’s just quite a strong title and definitely catches the attention of most of our clients when they pass through.

And then what about you and like growing up yourself? Where in the UK did you grow up in?

CCH: So I had quite a different childhood to Sophie, and we kind of joke about it quite a bit, because I grew up in London, born and bred. I grew up in East London in an area called Hackney. And I was very privileged and I had a really cultural upbringing. My parents, they were just adamant from day one that they would take my sister and I wherever they were going to go.

So actually, much like you Sophie, we went to a lot of art galleries in our childhood. But my dad was very, very into music and a real kind of spectrum of live music. So my sister and I would partake in that and my mum was into the ballet. So we were going to like, you know, it was a real mix. And it was high and low, it wasn’t just high, which we loved. I didn’t really realise that at the time, I think, but it’s very much shaped my way of thinking today. So my parents are just very influential on almost every aspect of my life, really.

And as a couple, I mean, you just said that you kind of joke about how you guys sort of grew up in a different household. Sophie, what’s something that goes on in the everyday that kind of goes, oh, wow, like, you know, that accentuates that or highlights that?

SA: I think it’s usually when we are talking about a future or maybe a dream version of a future of, you know, where we might live or how we might live or how we might fantasise about splitting our time between one place or another. I mean, for me, I feel a real urge and pull to nature and the countryside, thanks to my childhood and the places I’ve been lucky enough to grow up in. And I do find living in London full time, as it were, really hard.

You’re not, you weren’t a city kid. And so it’s still kind of overwhelming.

SA: And, you know, I love London so much and I only have to go to any other city in the world and feel, you know, infinitely more grateful that London is where I get to live and call home. And I wouldn’t change it, but I do feel deprived a bit of nature and trees and, you know, find myself in our local parks quite a lot. And it’s not quite the same.

So, whereas Charlie’s never had that experience, and I don’t think kind of relates to that, that longing for a good walk in the countryside, or actually most of the time I just fantasise about looking at a large body of water. I don’t mind what it is. I just want to look at water.

And I think it’s probably a bit of an antidote to stress and overwhelm that I might be feeling I need. But yeah, I think, you know, Charlie’s very open minded and will entertain these concepts with me. But I think that there’s a fear I have that I might be carrying the whole experience on behalf of all of us. If I drag us to the deepest, darkest countryside somewhere, you know, like, “Come on now everyone, put on your boots and let’s go out. I know it’s raining, but it’s still a bracing walk in the hills.” So yeah, it’s different.

And Sophie, you studied art history in the UK before going to Parsons in New York for design. What makes you take that leap and to study design and to do it in New York of all places?

SA: I was thinking about this, and I think at the time New York was sort of regarded, at least in my little world, as the center of the universe, you know, London was this place that I already knew and was familiar enough with, but the concept of going to New York to study, and all of the TV sitcoms and series of that time, and all were so kind of New York centric, it just felt like if you want to have a meaningful career and you want to begin and, and be immersed in the best place and city in the world to do that, then New York is the one.

And so for a 17 year old, that was kind of as simple as it was. I think I  just started becoming so interested in the idea of interiors and how a room or a home or a house or whatever has this, this power to make you feel a certain way, whether it’s, it’s kind of good or bad, and it can really enhance your life and enhance the lives of the people who get to live there. So history of art was wonderful as my degree.

And I’m so in love with art and it’s such a big part of my practice and what I do. And I was also very creative at school and painted a lot and loved drawing and things. So that was a kind of natural B.A. to do.

But I knew that it wasn’t really, you know, I didn’t want to become an art historian. And I was just, yeah, fascinated by property. I think probably from moving house so much and going around with the state agents and looking at new houses that my parents were contemplating buying or swapping to or whatever.

It’s just, it’s just, and interiors just seemed like this perfect blend of the things I was interested in: property, art, trying to get a bit closer and understand better this idea of, of home and how important the spaces we live in are to us.
And Charlie, you were studying art history at some point too. Is that correct?

CCH: Yes. Yeah. So I studied at quite a traditional university called The Courtauld Institute in London.

I actually specialized in classicism and neoclassicism. And I was interested in ideals of beauty because I think at that time, that was how I framed fashion’s obsession. I think I knew I was going to go into the fashion industry at that point. And so classicism felt like an interesting angle to, to study, to kind of prepare myself for that world.

And how did you know fashion was going to be your thing?

CCH: It was actually St. Martin’s and it was more outside the classroom than inside. I became fascinated by identity, I guess, and the power of clothing to shape perception, to empower, to, you can just do so many things. It wasn’t so much the fashion element.

It was more the power of clothing itself and how you can communicate who you want to be. And I began chatting to my old man about—and my mum actually—about that. And, you know, we were always having these conversations about our culture, fashion and the correlation between them.

And I think I was always quite conscious that my dad had experienced most British subcultures in his lifetime. And by the time I’d kind of reached 18, 19, the internet was so prolific. It was actually very hard for a subculture to emerge in a kind of authentic and natural way. And so a lot of my experiences of subculture and how they’d impacted fashion were informed by his personal experiences. And we’d often talk about my perspective on these ideas versus his. I think the brand just naturally emerged from those conversations. So it was kind of like a transgenerational conversation, I guess, is how I think about it.

That’s amazing. And Sophie, what was your career like before you sort of set on your own? What were your first couple of years as a designer out of school like? Was there anyone you were kind of like looking up to or really trying to, you know, pattern yourself off of? Because there’s so many. But in the end, you know, you have your own unique look.

SA: Well, it was fleeting, my career between university and starting Studio Ashby. I mean, the business is 11 years old now. And I started it when I was 25. So I had a couple of years, about three years working. They were really formative. And I learned a lot.

But in many ways, I wish I had given myself longer, like now with the wisdom of knowing how hard it is to run a business. It’d be nice if I had picked up a few more pointers along the way from other people. But yeah, I worked first for this brilliant kind of traditional interior designer called Victoria Fairfax, who had such an amazing sense of colour. She was extremely knowledgeable about antiques. She had exceptional taste. And I was her assistant in the sort of traditional sense of that idea just kind of followed her around doing whatever she needed doing. And she made the time to teach me things along the way. And then I worked at a company that no longer exists called Spring & Mercer as their young interior design department. Effectively, they had a few different things going on. And we were doing show apartments for developers. And I came in to do that. And I loved it.

But in terms of who I was looking up to, I think I have my design heroes, people like Jacques Grange, and on the one hand, and then, you know, people like John Pawson, on the other hand. But it wasn’t really the, well, it wasn’t the age of Instagram and social media. And so there wasn’t the same celebrity in a way.

I think you got your references and you learned about people from reading the magazines, which I devoured, but I didn’t kind of hero worship anyone. I was just fascinated to see these images. I just collected images from magazines of other people, other designers’ works and was often drawn to the more old world, eclectic layered homes of amazing collectors. And yeah, Jacques Grange kind of featured quite heavily, for example. But I think that’s all changed now. I think people do have idols in a way.

And in my own industry, it feels like designers are thought of in a different way these days, and also TV programs and that kind of thing. But it was simpler, basically, then.

And Charlie, why don’t you tell us the story of how you guys met from your perspective?

CCH: We actually met on a blind date. So we were set up by a mutual friend. And Sophie put in a very straightforward request that she was looking for someone tall.

SA: And that was the end of the list.

CCH: That was it. Set the bar low.

Are you tall?

CCH: I’m six foot six.

Oh, okay. 

CCH: So I excelled in the… 

Okay, well, you won.

CCH: …criteria that Sophie had requested. And yeah, our friend was like, oh, no, just the guy. And that was it. We hit it off, like, straight away. 

And Sophie, what did you think of Charlie when you first met him, other than the fact that he’s extremely tall?

SA: Yeah, well, I was thrilled with the height, obviously. And the hair adds another inch. So we were really winning.

I actually got the giggles and had to hide behind a pillar and regain my composure because he was so gorgeous that I completely, like, blushed and needed to pull myself together before walking up to him. And then I pretended I wasn’t sure if he was the man that I was looking for, knowing full well that he was. And yeah, I famously got about 10 minutes walking around the corner before I thought to myself, oh, my God, I think I’m in love with this guy. This is the one.

Where was the first date?

SA: We met outside a theatre in the West End as a meeting spot. And then we went to a wine bar on South Bank. And it was a Sunday night. I’m not really sure why we met on a Sunday night, but we ended up in the one and only restaurant in Soho that’s open every night, all night, having a very late dinner. And yeah, just didn’t want to go home.

(SPONSOR BREAK)

And Sophie, as your firm has sort of evolved on your own, and you started to get more work, how would you describe your sort of aesthetic to a new client? What are these clients sort of coming to you for, you think?

SA: I think people are coming to us because they enjoy colour, and they want something that feels real and soulful and layered and eclectic, and they have, or they share my belief that art is a very important part of a successful interior, and they want to kind of focus on that, and they’re interested in learning more about that process. 

Yeah, and I also think that they want to work with someone in a kind of, in a collaborative way, who’s going to listen, and there’s a dialogue. I’m not, I’m not an evil dictator. I do plan to be a dictator in the later years of my life, and boss everybody around, and just do it my way or the highway, but for now we’re trying a different approach, which is a lot more, yeah, collaborative. And I really just feel like at the end of the day, I am not saving anyone’s life. Interior design is an absolute joy to do as a job, but it’s also a real privilege to have someone design your home, and so I just feel like the whole experience, as best we can make it, should be enjoyable for both parties.

And do you consider your firm’s sort of aesthetic and your interior aesthetic as uniquely English or uniquely British? Because to me, it seems like, as an American, it seems like when I look at it, it seems so characteristically British in the fact that it is like comfortable, and warm, and colorful with pattern—things that don’t necessarily you would expect to go together, but really do, and there’s a sense of the handcraftedness in there, but also a sense of, you know, a kind of austere craftsmanship, you know, nothing is too frou-frou, as you might say. But there is that kind of unique blend that seems super English, but do you see that in your own work?

SA: I do. I think it’s there, but I also think there’s a sort of freshness and lightness to things, which is maybe more of a Southern Hemisphere pull. And, you know, the thing I always talk about, which is shared by many of my Australian or South African clients, for example, is just this desperate urge to open a window and let fresh air into any room that I’m in.

And I think my interiors, I try to almost create that feeling in a room. You know, I want there to be a lightness, and a cleanness, and a freshness, but I want there to be interest, and layer, and contrast as well. I don’t love things to be especially feminine. Occasionally, we do quite feminine rooms for clients who really want that, and I love doing that, and it’s really fun, and, you know, it’s, I mean, no colour is off limits. I think it’s utter madness to start ruling out colours and things. But I think there’s a kind of masculine sense of line, and simplicity to the proportion, and that kind of thing. But yeah, probably overall, there is a Britishness, but I’d like to think there’s a South African twist in there somewhere.

And Charlie, for Casely-Hayford, how do you describe the label to someone who’s never heard about it before? Like, what do you, what is your elevator pitch?

CCH: Yeah, sure. So, fundamentally, we are a menswear tailoring house. The tailoring world is quite small, and particular, and classic. And I think where we have found our niche is we generally design for guys who know themselves, and feel confident enough in themselves that they don’t need to wear a brand as a form of status, or as a logo. I’d say we definitely don’t design for guys who gravitate towards that. I think what we try and do is create garments for the individual that make them feel good about themselves, make them feel empowered. Every time we do a fitting in the store, and someone walks out, you see them, I know it’s a cliche, but people do walk differently when they feel great in clothing. And that’s kind of our MO. And so, what we really try and do is work around the individual, and we get to know our clients. We help build their wardrobe, and facilitate that feeling. 

It’s quite different to how I, you know, I first started off doing runway shows during London Fashion Week, and it was a very different output. Now we have a store in central London, and we do a lot of kind of custom tailoring, so specifically made to measure. And it’s just a wonderful experience, like getting to know people on that, you know, one-to-one level, and being able to create a garment that reflects their personality. And we kind of problem-solve in a way, because quite often guys come in, and they don’t necessarily know how to articulate what it is that they want. And if you go to a lot of tailoring houses, they just offer you their services, and say this is what we do. 

We’re kind of the antithesis of that. All of my team are trained both on Savile Row, but also come from fashion backgrounds, so they have an understanding of styling, and they have an understanding of tradition. That’s pretty rare within our world, and we kind of have really made that our DNA, and our niche within the market.

Do you think that there’s like a signature piece, or a type of signature piece that you maybe, that is, you know, what you’re best known for?

CCH: Yeah, I think, I wouldn’t say it’s a piece, but I think in terms of our aesthetic, whilst of course we can cut a very classic two-button navy suit, and you know, that is our bread and butter, I think what people enjoy about our style is that we do try and push boundaries in a subtle way— in a way that is understandable for most guys. So that guys who want to push their wardrobe forward that little bit further, I think they would come to us, you know, where they might be put off by a runway brand. Our interpretations are much more subtle, and at times I would say more sophisticated than a lot of that kind of language. We do look a lot like the 1940s, it’s just, I love what we call louche tailoring, so it’s just a softness to the aesthetic, and it’s almost got a sexiness to it. And I think if guys often struggle with the word sexy, it’s a word that is maybe easier for a woman to use, but whenever we say it in the store, men get all awkward and nervous, but actually a lot of men just want to look really good. It’s not always easy to execute that, and it’s definitely something that we discuss a lot in-house, and you know, with our clients.

And do you have a shop?

CCH: Yeah, so we have a store on a street called Chiltern Street in Marlborough, we’re right next door to a hotel called Chiltern Firehouse, and it’s just like such a nice vibe on the street.

Designed by Studio KO, who are also a podcast guest, and there was a fire recently.

CCH: There was a fire, yeah.

Did you experience any damage on your end? 

CCH: I mean, we somehow managed to elude any damage, and we actually share a wall with Firehouse, just to explain how close we are. It’s going to be closed for, people are saying two and a half years, so it was a huge fire.

Yeah, yeah, that’s really sad.

And so, Sophie you also have a sister label, or sort of a product called Sister by Studio Ashby, where you’re selling your own, you know, pieces that you’ve designed. How did that come about? Tell us a little bit about that side of the business.

SA: Yeah, so that business is five years old now, and something crazy came over me five years ago in COVID during lockdown in our house. I was pregnant with our first daughter, and felt clearly invincible. And so decided to set up Sister and also a charity called United in Design, all at the same time. So it was a busy year.

And yeah, Sister is a retail, shoppable version of our world. So we have our own furniture, rugs, fabrics, and lighting. We sell artworks as well, and objects, and it’s just a lot of fun, really. It’s something I’ve long dreamt of doing, and I think it’s often a logical step for an interior designer to add on that string to their bow, and it’s something I was always so drawn to. I love shopping. I love stuff. I love nothing more than the pleasure of walking around a beautifully curated, beautifully designed store that smells delightful, has perfect music playing, and you’re served a coffee and a biscuit in the most exquisite cup and perfect plate. And the whole desire to kind of control and design every element of a space in an interior, for me, it goes far beyond just the furniture and the pieces. 

So the shop, which we, well, showroom that we have here in London, in St. James’s Park for Sister, is just an opportunity for me to kind of play and create in a way that is quite freeing and separate to our projects. It will be of no surprise to anyone or anyone in my industry to hear that working on complex, long-term, large-scale interiors projects is complicated and requires real skill and time, and we enjoy that very much at Studio Ashby, and it’s what I’ve always wanted to do. But I think sometimes I was just craving that feeling that I had at school of being in the art block and painting and making things and thinking, using my brain in a different way, and it’s just been, it’s been such fun to do that. 

And for the first few years, it was fun, but also slightly in the midst of new motherhood and all sorts of things, quite quickly it started to feel like a bit of an insane idea, and I was wondering what on earth I was thinking. But five years in with an incredible team who really believe in it and some real momentum behind some successful pieces and products, it’s really taking off and I just love it. I wish I had more time to spend doing things with Sister.

And what would you say is your most successful piece at Sister?

SA: Yeah, I think it is our rhino chair, which is this lovely sort of sculptural chair inspired by the body—the wide, smooth, curved body of a rhino. And the fabrics are doing really well as well, which I really love because I think, you know, as an interior designer, fabrics are pretty key to what we do. And I’ve always been drawn to vintage textiles and things with age and patina and interesting little patterns. And it’s been really fun to go into all of that further. We partner with a great fabric house called Yarn Collective to produce it all. So we’ve got none of the headache of actually trying to manufacture hundreds of metres of fabric. Yeah.

That’s amazing. And of course, you mentioned United in Design, the charity that you co-founded. Tell us a little about that and what is it?

SA: Yeah, United in Design is the only charity in the UK that serves the interior design industry. And the point of it is to remove barriers to entry into an industry that has historically been quite tough to get into unless you know someone. And I think, in fact, something like 79% of interior designers in the UK come from a privileged background.

And, you know, I am the case in point example of that. I went to private school. My name is Sophie, along with most interior designers in the UK.

And I got my first job because of somebody that I knew. And that has been the case for eternity. And I think I had a slow to the party but dawning realisation during the Black Lives Matter movement in the wake of the murder of George Floyd that as an owner of a business and someone who employs now 33 people, I have a responsibility to think about how I’m hiring people, what opportunities I’m giving, how I’m thinking about recruitment.

And really, yeah, my responsibility in making sure that I am, my studio is a diverse place to work because I think diversity in thought and background breeds innovation and better results and work. And so it’s that simple. It’s a simple premise, which is just let’s make it more inclusive. Let’s open doors. And basically, we do that by this career pathway programme that we have, which provides internships to graduates as well as mentoring. Yeah.

And how many sort of people have come through the doors at this point? I guess this might be about four or five years later.

SA: Yeah, it’s been about five on average per year for the last five years. We’ve got a brilliant new charity director who’s brilliantly ambitious and so far is doing exactly what she said she was going to do, which is thrilling and so exciting. So it feels like we’re in this new dawn of United in Design.

I believe so strongly in hiring the right people and it’s worked very well for me with Studio Ashby and Sister and it’s very exciting to now see that happening with United in Design. Yeah, anyway, she’s got a target of, I think, 20 or 25 internships to start for our next cohort. And what that basically means is an interiors business, whether that’s an interior design studio or lighting design studio or a manufacturer, maker, magazine, anyone adjacent to our industry providing a kind of four-month internship, paid, to someone.

And we help facilitate the internship and provide lots of mentoring and training and kind of workshops to just make sure that it’s as successful a partnership as possible. And of the previous cohorts, I think we have a 96% retention rate of those individuals. So it’s like, the writing’s on the wall. It works. You create the opportunity for talented people to come in the door, show you what they can do, and they get a seat at the table, and that’s their career beginning.

And do you find that something that I’ve always felt, especially about the design industries, maybe this might be more about New York than anywhere else, but it might be something that’s common, is there is that sort of barrier of like who you know and what your references are personally from your family history, but also I think in just normal education for everybody, no matter where you come from, kids go to school wanting to be an architect and that’s kind of the only thing in design that people are kind of educated in, that people, I don’t know, like I didn’t even know interior designers really existed until a certain point in my life. You’re not taught anything else.

So how would you know you want to be a lighting designer if you didn’t even know lighting designing even existed?

SA: Exactly. And that is also part of the problem. And so what we’re doing is going into schools and doing careers fairs and standing there with a clipboard and a sign telling young people all about interior designs and targeting, sorry, interior design as a job and a career, and targeting schools where they have a really good mixture of students and also educating people on the salaries.

Like what does it mean to, how do you become an interior designer? What should you study? What A-levels should you choose? Does it matter? How much money do you get paid as an intern, junior designer? What is the career pathway?

Because I think, you know, when we first started the charity, I put a statement on Instagram, which is the reason the whole thing kind of kickstarted, and I made a plea to people to get in touch with me if they were interested in sharing their experiences. And I spoke to about 30 or 40 people on Zoom in the following weeks and listened to a lot of stories.

And, you know, one of the barriers to entry is actually that often in Black families, for example, I was told a lot that there’s an emphasis on these careers such as law or accountancy or being a doctor, and interior design was getting bundled into the unreliable pathway of like being an actor or being an artist or something like that. And so I think at the careers fairs, we’re talking to a lot of parents and families and explaining what it is. And, you know, interior design isn’t the world’s most lucrative career pathway unless you get to a point where you run your own business and then things kind of start changing.

But it is a really big industry and it’s growing and there are all these adjacent jobs. And, you know, more importantly, it’s just a really great job and it’s a great industry to be part of. So we’re doing what we can through the charity at different levels to just make it known that it’s a great industry and how do you get into it if you want to get into it and making sure that the opportunities are there for those who want to get involved.

And Charlie, what do you think about all of that? You know, when Sophie must have explained this to you and mentioned that you wanted to do this because you it sounds like you recruit people for your own business that come from more of a fashion background, but then also more of a I don’t know, like a Savile Row mentality of tailoring coming from a childhood of top hats to school and things like that. There’s such different career mindsets that young people might be sort of interested in.

And like what did you give any advice to Sophie in terms of feedback or what you think was important?

CCH: Well, I think the fashion industry generally is perceived as being one of the most progressive industries. And so I guess when we were comparing, it obviously still has a lot of work to do, but when we were comparing notes, it was just a no brainer. And I just commend Sophie for doing it when she did because she already had so much on her plate.

But the fact was no one else was stepping up. And so she felt like she had to do it. And she’s made such a success of it.

And it’s really I think she got a lot of stick at the beginning because people just assumed that the change would happen immediately. But, you know, it’s taken Sophie a decade to get to where she is in her career. These things don’t happen overnight.

And the amazing people that she’s working with, who are now moving through the industry, they’re there because they should be. And it’s not to do with the color of their skin. And I know that’s often a kind of counter argument that’s banded about.

But there is a severe barrier to entry and interior design as there is in a lot of industries. And what Sophie’s doing is levying out the playing field. So the people who do deserve to be at the table can be. So I’m incredibly proud of her.

And in the U.S., we’re kind of experiencing a sort of political quiet, what’s the right word to use? Giving us whiplash, you know, reactionary thing going on in the US with DEI and everything like that, being the first thing on the chopping block. And how is it today and, you know, 2025 and the latter half of 2025, you know, in the UK? And how is that going in terms of like, you know, in design and sort of that world of communication?

SA: Well, the charity was started by myself and Alex Dauley, who is now an extremely good friend and she’s a talented designer. And she, you know, running a charity is very difficult. Asking for money and fundraising is very difficult.

It’s also a completely unnatural state for me to be in, sort of with my hand out asking people for money. And amazingly, I just didn’t realise when we set this charity up, Alex and I, that a big part of doing that would mean that her and I would need to do quite a lot of fundraising. And sometimes, you know, it just feels like, God, this is hard work. We’re not getting anywhere. And you kind of get lots of doors shut in your face and you fill out a lot of forms asking for funding. And then you hear about what’s going on in the US and these changes. And, you know, I can look at Alex and think, oh, God, are we really doing this? It’s tough. And she is so passionate as a Black woman who has experienced all of the things we’re fighting against and who has young teenage girls who are about to be ejected into the world looking for jobs.

And, you know, she is so passionate for all the right reasons because of her experience that this is needed and that she lives the experience of walking into room after room as the only Black woman in the room. Asking for opportunities or competing. And, you know, I just need to speak to her to be reminded that this is not political. For us and what we’re doing, it’s honestly, it’s just about trying to do the right thing and just even out the playing field, just make it fairer. Until that feeling goes away and she doesn’t tell me the stories of what it’s actually like for her, then we just keep going.

And, you know, the two of you guys have such highly creative and entrepreneurial lives that are both separate, but also obviously together. And I was just wondering, like, do you guys ever consult each other on any kind of day to day? In terms of, Sophie, do you show Charlie like a plan for a living room or Charlie, do you show Sophie a bunch of pants and say too high or too pleated?

CCH: It’s maybe not so literal, but day to day we definitely exchange ideas and I think we exchange notes as well. I think a lot of the time it’s more about running a business and how difficult it is and keeping each other buoyed up because it’s quite a lonely path and, you know. 

Why is it lonely?

CCH: Well, I don’t, I don’t know if you actually, so I guess you’ve now got that little crew of interior designers that you meet up with, but it’s not that it’s competitive, but everyone kind of keeps themselves to themselves. You know, Sophie had a breakfast, was that this week? And she invited a number of interior designers and when Sophie was giving a speech, the kind of last thing she said was, she just commented on how difficult it was. And it was kind of like she suddenly broke down this barrier and then everyone confessed about how much they’re struggling and how difficult. 

And I think quite often within the creative industries, there’s this facade that we’re all smashing it and I think, you know, social media doesn’t help that. And I think what I respect and love in terms of the relationship I have with my wife is that we can have those exchanges and we kind of pull one another up because, you know, it’s challenging at times.

And I think because we live and breathe it, it doesn’t feel like work. I know a lot of couples who just actively choose not to talk about work as soon as they get home, but that’s just not the case for us, is it?

Like, Sophie, if you could maybe change one thing about the fashion world that would help Charlie in general, what would you, what would you change? What would you kind of, now that you’ve heard Charlie maybe complain over the years?

SA: Yeah, oh my gosh. I know, and also Charlie’s sister and brother-in-law and mother, they all work in the fashion industry. So it’s actually all I ever hear about and talk about.

So I should have a sort of quicker answer, but I suddenly felt a feeling of overwhelm when you said that, just like, “Oh, where do I begin.”

Like, what’s the common theme from like, you know, hearing the pitfalls of this weird, of all these chats of kind of like, of this famously difficult industry that’s, from everything that I’ve read, is getting only more difficult.

SA: It seems to me that it’s about the kind of, the pace at which newness is required, and how many collections a year everyone makes, and therefore, and how much of that actually just doesn’t sell at full price, and then goes on sale, and then you’re on to the next, and there’s all this surplus stock in the world and oversupply, and it’s also transient and trend-led. I think that seems to be the conversation that I’m listening to a lot of the time. And I guess what Charlie’s doing about that is creating, is running a business where it’s mostly made to order, or made to measure, or whatever you want to call it.

You know, it’s about creating the perfect wardrobe for each individual client, and not just for the sake of it, but something that’s like lasting and enduring, and not trend-led. And, you know, by definition, as soon as you’ve made the thing last season, I think that concept is what’s wrong with the fashion world.

CCH: And I think a lot of that has probably been influenced by you, Sophie. As in just talking to you day in, day out. And I think the permanence that comes with your work, I was kind of very keen for that to be reflected in my work as well.

And I think also the interaction and engagement that your clients have with what you do. It’s quite often missing from fashion, because the very idea of fashion is based, as you said, on transiency. And quite often promoting and selling things that people don’t need, and creating that desire. And I think over the years, I’ve grown a slight disdain towards that. Whilst I respect my peers, and I’m not trying to take anything away from them. I just think for me personally, I’ve tried to build our brand in a slightly different way. So it at least feels a little bit more meaningful to myself and to my family.

That’s quite fair. And Charlie, do you find it, now that it’s been a couple of years after the pandemic, do you find it challenging to find men that want that kind of tailored wardrobe? Or is there a slip sliding back into casualness? Or have people kind of really come back?

CCH: I think the challenge has been in kind of redefining, I guess, the role of tailoring in a world that increasingly values comfort and versatility. But what you’ve just said is something that was pushed quite heavily in the press. And actually, we’ve found, personally, that the opposites happened.

And this may just be London, but we have a lot of international clients. And I do get a sense it is happening elsewhere. It’s that a lot of guys who had no interest in suits before the pandemic are now choosing to use it as a form of body armor.

And it’s almost like they’ve appropriated the suit. And so they flip the traditions on its head. And the example I always give is, if you think of a lot of British subcultures, skinheads are a good example. And you look at their uniform, which is very much part of their identity. They’re wearing an MA-1 bomber jacket, which is pilfered, obviously, from the military, and has these kinds of very establishment values. And the same with their 12-hole military boots.

And it’s this idea of taking something establishment, and then making it anti-establishment. Post-pandemic, whilst it might have been a subconscious move, I feel like a lot of our clients and a lot of guys shopping in our store, their perception of the suit is very different. And so where pre-pandemic, it was like this separate thing in your wardrobe that you go to wear when you need to get dressed up, now it’s like part of your everyday. And guys are just wearing it on the weekend, casually with a t-shirt, with a knit, with trainers. And it’s just completely relaxed and become integrated into the everyday wardrobe.

So actually, we’re finding that our sales of relaxed suits have kind of gone through the roof. And then on the flip side, we’re getting a lot of guys who just want to dress up. And so we’re doing these kinds of exquisite, sharp, chic suits on the flip side.

So it’s actually, for us, quite an interesting time. And I think maybe that’s because where we’ve positioned ourselves within the market means that people feel like they can explore these new areas confidently with us because it’s our world, it’s our language, and we understand maybe what they don’t know how to articulate. A lot of other more traditional tailoring houses may struggle with the tools that are needed to kind of facilitate these needs.

And Sophie, what’s next for Studio Ashby?

SA: What’s next for Studio Ashby? We have a few hotel projects we’ve been working on for a long time, which will finally come to the attention of people in the autumn, which is really exciting. We have lots of long-term projects, private client work that we’ve been working on for years and years, and quite a few of them finished this year, which is exciting, including one in Canada.

And, yeah, we’re working on a few collaborations. And the most exciting thing for me is that I have a new EA starting in nine days.

Okay, all right.

SA: So that’s all I can think about.

And Charlie, what’s next for Casely-Hayford?

CCH: I’m really enjoying being a shop owner, a retailer. It’s kind of still a relatively new experience to me, I think, having sold internationally for most of my career. I mean, made this jump. I just absolutely love it. So I think we’re looking to open more stores with self-finance like Sophie is. And so we have to do everything at our own pace. But I think New York’s probably next on my list. So I’m coming for you.

All right, yeah, come on over. We need more good tailors. So the more the merrier. I’m telling you, once you’re a guy that actually gets a bespoke suit made, you’ll never go back. And I completely identify with what you were saying before. 

And Sophie, if you had to describe Charlie in three words, what three words would you choose?

SA: Gentle. Thoughtful. And kind.

Charlie, if you had to describe Sophie in three words.

CCH: I feel like you’re our therapist. We’re just working through our… Visionary. Compassionate. I think that about you every day. Inspiring.

I don’t think you realize the impact you have on people around you.

SA: That’s very nice.

Well, that’s sweet. I’m so glad I could be your therapist today. 

Thank you to my guests, Sophie and Charlie, as well as to Laura Blakeman for making this episode happen. The editor of The Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don’t forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter, The Grand Tourist Curator at thegrandtourist.net. And follow me on Instagram @danrubinstein.

And you can purchase the first ever print issue of The Grand Tourist online now on our website. And don’t forget to follow The Grand Tourist on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen and leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Till next time!

(END OF TRANSCRIPT)