Living the Dream: Island Escape

TRANSCRIPT

 Marc Farrell: … I think about sort of exposing brick like in an apartment that you’re renovating or remodeling and you expose the original brick. I think with Caribbean culture, there’s an opportunity to do exactly that, get folks away from this fairly reductive view to what the Caribbean is about, and show them a more multidimensional multivariate, again, more inspiring and authentic reflection of that culture. The Caribbean is a magical place.

Dan Rubinstein: Hi. I’m Dan Rubinstein, and this is The Grand Tourist. I’ve been a design journalist for more than 20 years, and this is my personalized guided tour to the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food, and travel, all the elements of a well-lived life. And welcome to a special episode, brought to you by our dear supporters at Janus AC.

Hey, for no particular reason, I was wondering if you might feel the need to escape somewhere like permanently. Last spring, I took a deep dive into the world of Italian real estate, and today we’re going to do a little bit of planning and figure out where in the world we’re going to hide. I mean, get away from it all this summer or perhaps forever. Somewhere with warm sands, lots of sun, simple foods, and with as little stress as possible. This time we’re looking into island living.

While I’m not the beach bum per se, I do enjoy the idea of living by the sea and enjoying the quiet life and the peace of it all. On this episode, we’ll speak with an enterprising entrepreneur who’s elevating the Caribbean rum to new heights with some honest advice on where to consider exploring or even putting down roots from Tobago to Barbados. And we’ll speak with a designing couple that’s bringing high design and contemporary interiors to the extremely popular Spanish island of Mallorca.

But first, we’ll meet Alexia Scheinman, the chief brand and strategy officer of our family’s company, the hot to trot New York interior design firm, Pembrooke & Ives. The agency is well known for its ultra-lux clientele, creating mansions, penthouses, private clubs and the like. But it was during the time of the pandemic when Alexia decided to move to Athens full-time, flying back and forth when needed to continue her firm’s incredible work, while also maintaining a palatial home overlooking the water on the island of Serifos in the Aegean Sea. I wanted to kick things off and ask the recently made expat what drew her to Greece, what life is like over there full-time, and what her advice is on sifting through the absolute treasure trove of locales that make up the Greek isles.

So Alexia, thank you so much for doing this. I’m so excited to chat with you right now. And you’re in Athens, correct?

Alexia Sheinman: That’s correct, yes. And I’m very excited to be here with you. Thank you so much.

And tell me a little about your firm and sort of your relationship with Greece.

AS: Sure. So Pembrooke & Ives is a firm started by my father in the late eighties, so it’s been around for some time. Started in New York City and I joined the firm right out of grad school. I studied at Parsons, I did my MFA in interior design there and joined my father. And since joining the firm, we’ve grown the business to about 80 people, mostly based in our New York City office, working on both high-end residential projects around the US and internationally as well, and also on some real estate development, residential development, hospitality projects. So we have quite a diverse practice, and it was actually through COVID that I was able to realize that much of what I do for the firm, which is more on the business side of our business, so in our brand strategy, business development, marketing, that I can do many of those things remotely. And that really gave me the ticket to be able to jump on a plane and come and live out my dream in Athens and spending a lot more time in Greece, which is a country I’ve always loved.

And when did that happen? When did you kind of decide? Was this a pandemic thing?

AS: It was something I had been thinking about pre-pandemic, and I had spent a lot of time in Greece through my childhood. My mother is Greek Cypriot originally, but as a family, we always spent our summers in Greece and have many friends in Greece as well. And I came to live in Greece, in Athens when I was 15 to do an exchange program here for six months. And that’s really what planted the seed for my love of this city in particular, but also the country. And so it was an idea that had been brewing for some time, and of course we all went into lockdown and that led to a much deeper yearning for a big move like this. So I moved in 2021.

And so 3 years in, how would you describe to someone like me. I’ve never been to Greece, so I would love to hear from you, just sort of top line if you have to describe life in Greece full-time as an emigre, I guess you could say. What is it like compared to that New York life?

AS: Yeah, I like to describe… Well, of course there are many sides to Greece, so I’m speaking specifically to life in Athens, but I do describe Athens as the vibrancy and the grittiness of New York City paired with a Mediterranean climate and lifestyle. So for me, it’s the best of all the worlds that you can bring together here. And of course a huge appeal of Athens is all the surrounding landscape and all the islands and the ability to be by the sea in 20 minutes or to be in the mountains in 20 minutes, or to be playing tennis outside for 10 months of the year. You can live very well in Athens, and I don’t think you need a lot to be able to enjoy life here.

So there’s also kind of an affordability aspect of it?

AS: There’s an affordability, but there’s also a simplicity aspect to it. I was horrified by the fact, for example, that on Sundays you can’t really buy anything, even food or groceries, let alone going to the store to buy a pair of sneakers or whatever you may need. And coming from New York, which is a 24/7 city where you can get anything anytime, that was a huge shock to the system. And three years in, I cherish Sundays for the fact that you can’t do any of those things. You’re kind of forced to slow down a little bit. You’re forced to spend time with people and to enjoy those quieter moments that I think are really the more important moments of life.

And as a designer, have you done any projects out on these islands or what is that experience when it comes to the nitty-gritty of building and renovating and all that stuff?

AS: The long and short of that is it’s complicated and it’s difficult, and I guess in some ways that’s a good thing, otherwise more people would be doing it. But of course, having the local know-how is really important to be able to achieve a project on these islands. Particularly Serifos does not have an airport, so everything that arrives to the island is by boat. There are about 1400 people that live there year-round, a small sparsely populated island. So even the labor tends to have to be imported, let alone all the materials and all the expertise is almost all coming from off the islands from the mainland, which of course increases the cost of everything as well.

And so as I’m a complete Greek amateur, I guess you could call it, or novice, which is probably a better term, there’s 200 and something islands or whatever, dozens and dozens and dozens of islands, and I am just sort of like, “Yeah, I want to find a place that I could spend half the year or even through quarters of a year, whatever.” What are my options and what would you tell me just if I was like, “Hey, Alexia, I would love to just… I want to do this.” What advice do you have just in terms of choosing where to go? Because that’s also been something that I’ve kind of struggled with when I’m planning something to Greece where I’m like, “Oh, do I want to just spend all of my time in Athens or do I want to go to the islands? Which one? How do I choose?” That seems to be… It’s kind of an embarrassment of riches in terms of picking,

AS: It’s a great question, and I get asked this a lot by friends and friends of friends who are wanting to come and experience Greece for the first time. And there are so many factors to consider. In your example, if it was a place you wanted to come and spend six months of the year, I think the consideration is how remote do you want to be or in what kind of proximity to the mainland do you want to be? I think that that’s an important consideration because you have islands like Patmos for example, which is an incredibly beautiful island, but you have to take, I think it’s about an eight-hour ferry to get there.

And that’s one of the only ways, unless you take a helicopter, but it’s basically the only accessible way to get to an islands like Patmos. So if you’re looking for a very off the grid experience where you can just hunker up and really enjoy one particular island, that would be a great option to go to. Of course, a lot of people think of Greece as a place where you’re able to stop on one island for a couple of days, then jump on a ferry and go to another island. So for that more island hopping experience, there are many places you can go. Of course I’m biased, but I think Serifos is a very beautiful island, and also it’s on-

How far is it?

AS: It’s about two, two and a half hours. So in proximity to Athens, it’s actually one of the closer islands to Athens, which makes it one of the easier destinations, let’s say, to get to. And it’s also connected on the same ferry routes to more popular islands like Sifnos and Patmos and Milos. So you can do a nice ferry routes around and get to see a couple of islands within a few days of each other, let’s say. Then you can head to an island like Hydra, which is quite a popular island, also relatively close in proximity to Athens. And Hydra in particular is an island with no cars on it. It’s an island that’s always attracted writers. Very picturesque island. And what’s nice about Hydra is there’s really just one port area, which is the hub of life in Hydra.

So it feels very easy island, let’s say, and has a very nice community of people that go there who are very creative types of people. I would say the drawback for me to Hydra is the accessibility to the beaches where you have to take a boat almost… You have to take a boat to get to all of the beaches, whereas some of the other islands are, you can be on these beautiful beaches and walking distance or be able to drive there five or 10 minutes. So again, it depends what’s important to you. If you want to go to an island with stunning beaches and you’re happy to take a boat around to access those beaches also, Milos is an amazing island for that with these very unique and picturesque beaches that you can see. There are some islands that have amazing history to them. Crete, for example, it’s a huge island, and you can spend two weeks exploring Crete and still not see it all. It has two main cities.

Well, let me put it to you this way. Is there an island out there that’s maybe off the beaten path that you think that doesn’t get a lot of press, that doesn’t get a lot of attention, that maybe only people in Greece might kind of be attracted to or for that kind of second home? Because obviously in the US press and in the travel press and the style press, we always hear about the same three places. But if there’s 200 islands, there must be one that locals and Greek citizens are like, “Okay, obviously, this is where we go.” It’s just like if you ask an Italian, “Where do you go on vacation?” None of them go, “We’re going to Florence.” They’re all going to find some coastal town that Americans have never heard of. So what are some of those islands that maybe a Greek person would know and love, but that just never makes it into the pages of travel and leisure?

AS: Well, this doesn’t exactly answer your question because it’s not an island, but I have completely fallen in love with the mainland coastline of Greece. So the Peloponnese region, and in particular an area called Mani. And it very much feels like being on an island in certain parts of this mainland area where you just have the most incredible waters you’ve ever seen, and a landscape that actually is very reminiscent of Tuscany with these tall cypress trees and these kind of winding hills and the Greek coastline. Yes, the Peloponnese is an incredibly beautiful part of Greece that I think is extraordinarily underrated, and you get beautiful waters. They’re beautiful beaches combined with this landscape of these tall cypress trees. It’s very green and lush. Unlike some of the islands that we’ve talked about previously, which are very dry and sparse, these are incredibly beautiful landscapes with stone houses and amazing food and very accessible from Athens. And there’s also an airport in Kalamata in the Peloponnese region, which makes driving through these areas very accessible. And I just think it’s such an amazing part of Greece to be able to explore there.

And let’s say, okay, so I wanted to buy a house or acquire real estate in some way on the islands, how do you do it? Are there agents that are specific to these islands or is it more regional? How does that work? How would you start that journey?

AS: I would say it’s lacking in any great kind of structure. So there’s not one exact answer to that question. Most of the islands, I would say there is a local real estate office, at least one, or if not on the island itself, then on the bigger neighboring islands. There are-

AS: … neighboring islands. There are a few websites that pull together all of the listings that exist all throughout Greece actually, that allow you to filter by the area in which you’re looking so you can get a general sense of what’s around, what’s available. But I have to say in Greece in particular, and probably for most places of the world, the best thing is to show up there and to start speaking to people. You always find the best deals here by being there and being led to what it is you’re looking for through conversations you have, through meeting people locally. That’s always the best way to suss out real estate, in Greece anyway.

And in terms of that day-to-day life on an island, it’s one thing to go to an island for five days on a holiday or be in a hotel or an Airbnb or something on an island, and there’s another to own a house and to live there months out of the year on Idra or what have you. What should someone who has never done that before be prepared for?

AS: Oh, it’s magical. Of course, depending where you’re coming from and what day-to-day life looks for you somewhere else, but I think this idea of really just slowing down, of seeing the sea every day is so meditative and rejuvenating, and I really think you just come back to the very basics of enjoying very simple things about life. And the biggest activity of your day could be going to buy what you need at the supermarket and making your way home from there. And maybe you’re not finding what you’re looking for, but you’re just buying what you find there because that’s available that day and being a little bit creative with what you’re able to do with what surrounds you. And I just think there’s something about the combination of sun and sea and a nice climate and fresh food that you realize there’s really not much more that you need in life to make you happy. And nice people, of course.

Yeah, let’s talk about the people. I mean, I think everybody has that know Mamma Mia fantasy, and especially in the U.S., these kinds of Greek stereotypes in a sense of the West, someone from New York or someone from the United States going to live in Greece and My Greek Wedding, all that kind of stuff. But in terms of surviving that day-to-day, your faucet breaks in the bathroom, and you need help and someone to come and fix it, what do you need to know about that Greek day-to-day culture that’s not so much about how warm and friendly somebody is, but just how they think and how they operate?

AS: I hope that never happens to you in Greece. That’s not an easy one. I think like in any culture, you find the people that can help you, and there are always those that will always see you as a foreigner in a way that is not in a particularly good light. They see you coming in and using their resources or bringing in elements of your culture that they feel are not appropriate. Let’s say they’re not particularly welcoming to foreigners, there’s that side. And then there’s a side of Greece which is incredibly hospitable and open and welcoming to new ideas, and they love being able to showcase their country and everything that Greece is known for.

Whether it is inviting you into their house and cooking for you, they take such great pride in the food of the culture, and that’s always a way of showing your love or your appreciation or whatever it may be. Just such a nice part of Greek culture is sharing in a meal together, for example. But doing the small tasks or dealing with the bureaucracy, I’m sure it’s the same in Italy and many of these Mediterranean countries. It’s very, very difficult. Even if you are Greek it’s difficult, and you have the added challenge if you’re not a native speaker or maybe don’t know the ins and the outs of the systems that it can definitely be difficult to navigate.

Let’s talk about food for a second. On these Greek Islands, obviously you think of that island Mediterranean diet and that classic vision of olives and fish and blah, blah, blah. What’s your personal favorite thing to order when you go to Patmos or you go to Idra? What’s the thing you order on the menu when someone gives you at a restaurant? What’s your go-to?

AS: I’m a very simple girl at heart, so a grilled white fish with, they have these greens called horta, which are just mountain greens. It’s a very generic catch-all phrase, but it’s just the most delicious, fresh boiled green vegetables with olive oil and lemon and fresh fish. And fava is a favorite. It’s similar to hummus, but made with yellow split peas. And a Greek salad. I could eat that every day of my life I think.

(SPONSOR BREAK)

My next guest is Marc Farrell, the man behind Ten To One Rum, a relatively new spirit that’s elevating a drink without any sugar, flavoring, and coloring. In a way, they’re looking to bring a sense of terroir to a category that’s often synonymous with, as they say, pirates and plantations. I wanted to chat with Marc as my expert on all things Caribbean. A native of Trinidad and Tobago, he gives his inside look on where a more down-to-earth vibrant community is looking to relax and settle down today. Thank you so much for doing this. So pleased to talk to you again. And how is everything going in the world of Ten To One Rum?

Marc Farrell: Things are going well. The world of Ten To One, trying to bring the story, the magic, the positivity of all things rum and all things Caribbean culture to as many places and spaces as we can. As you know, Ten To One is a real point of pride for me given my Caribbean roots and everything else. So certainly a pleasure to continue telling that story and sharing that story with the world.

Yeah, tell me a little bit about the story for the people that don’t know. Tell me just a little bit about your background and where you came to this world of spirits and how you started Ten To One and why.

MF: Yeah, for sure. Well, I tell people it starts with the accent, that anybody out there is listening that they’re hearing at the moment. So born and raised in the Caribbean, very proud son of the soil from Trinidad and Tobago, and in a lot of ways, Ten To One is a very happy intersection of a personal point of passion with a very clear commercial opportunity. The personal point of passion, being from Trinidad, being from the Caribbean, rum I tell people is born out of the soil where we’re from. And so we have this amazing opportunity to elevate it, celebrate it, put it on a global stage. It’s a spirit that for a long time has been, I think, very much underappreciated, a little bit misunderstood in the hearts and minds of many consumers.

And so for me, Ten To One is this amazing opportunity to I think begin to shift some of those perceptions, to try to reinvigorate the category. And we do that through a combination of two things, bringing a more elevated liquid to market, getting people away from I think some of the sugary, slushy cocktails they might be used to around rum. Elevated liquids, super versatile, exceptionally clean, no additives of any kind, I think that’s really important for today’s consumer. And then, from a brand narrative perspective, getting people away from the old kitschy, colonial way that rum has been represented historically into something that feels more contemporary, more authentic, more inspired. I think if you can do those two things, with Ten To One, we have this ambition to create what is really the most authentically crafted Caribbean rum on the market. I think there’s been a lot of resonance around what we’ve done with a little bit of that intention in mind.

In terms of my own personal background, moved to the U.S. when I was 16. Came here for college. I’ve been here mostly ever since. In the way back, studied at MIT. My first degree was in chemical engineering, did a public policy masters at Cambridge and Business School at Harvard. So some amazing stops there along the way. And then, from a professional standpoint, early career in consulting and private equity with Bain and Fidelity. Most recently, I was actually on the executive team at Starbucks. I worked for Howard Schultz, who’s still an amazing mentor and friend of mine, has been an amazing support as I’ve brought Ten To One to life. And it’s a little bit of that inspiration that got me thinking about how we could bring a business and a brand to life through the lens of who I am, where I’m from, the things that I care about.

And so this ends up being, as I said, a very personal story in addition to creating what has been the most awarded and fastest growing rum out there in the category today.

Tell me about the name Ten To One and where it comes from, because it’s not totally random.

MF: Yes, that’s right. I tell people, actually, every element of this brand is intentional. And actually that starts with the name, which provides a good signal as to where we’re headed. The name Ten To One, inspired by the original Caribbean Federation, which consisted of 10 countries, so this idea of 10 becoming one. And Trinidad’s Prime Minister at the time had a famous quote where he had said, “One from 10 leaves zero,” the idea there being, if you remove one from the collective, the whole thing falls apart. And so we’ve always said the Ten To One is a brand based on this idea of community, strength in numbers, the idea that we are all stronger together than we are apart. In my mind, that’s not a Trinidadian message or a Caribbean message for that matter. It’s one that hopefully feels broadly and globally resonant for so many of us around the world today.

And for those who don’t know Trinidad and Tobago, there’s so many places in the Caribbean, so many different pockets and islands and cultures. Tell me how you describe Trinidad and Tobago in terms of how it is different from the rest of the Caribbean.

MF: Yeah, it’s a great question. It’s so different in so many ways. And I say that, of course, everybody has a little bit of their hometown bias, and so that may be the first inclination that folks may think as I say that. But listen, even if you use the lens of rum, and I’ll pivot off of that, I always tell people the soil composition in Trinidad is very different. Trinidad is geologically part of South America. It’s the southernmost island. It’s right off the coast of Venezuela. And you can actually see in the old Pangea model where Trinidad broke off of South America. So we share that same oil and gas vein that Venezuela does. Soil composition is different. As I just alluded to, we are an oil and gas economy, so whereas a lot of the Caribbean obviously has been built on the back of tourism for the last half a century and beyond, Trinidad and Tobago is a more industrialized economy.

Oil and gas, we were one of the top five exporters of both ammonia and methanol globally for a long period of time. So that’s geologically, that’s economically. If you look at it demographically, Trinidad and Tobago, 40% Black, 42% Indian, lots of folks who are mixed. Then Chinese, Syrian, Lebanese descent also that’s a part of our makeup as well. [inaudible 00:30:50], of course, folks who have European and origin as well. So a very interesting, unique cultural mosaic that comes from that. And you see it manifested in the food that we have, which is an amazing amalgam of India and Africa and European, Middle Eastern sensibilities. You see it brought to life in the food and the way that we relate, we interact. A lot of the cultural elements are super, super different.

And I tell folks that, unlike maybe other places in the Caribbean that, again, are a little bit more tourist forward, in Trinidad, there’s something about, if you come to Trinidad, there aren’t a lot of street signs that tell you where to go and where to hang out and all those things. There aren’t a lot of touristy places. Part of the beauty of Trinidad is that you celebrate with us. You’re going to eat where we eat. You’re going to drink where we drink. You’re going to party where we party. You’re going to go to the same beaches as us. And so there’s something about I think the magic of becoming part of the essence of who and what we are as a people that I think makes Trinidad a very special place to visit, to explore, and ultimately to celebrate.

Yeah, absolutely. So with Trinidad, take me through, maybe if you were to go and visit with a friend who’d never been before, describe for me a perfect weekend in Trinidad.

MF: Yeah, for sure. So Trinidad, by the way, and Tobago are very different. So whereas I just kind of painted a picture for you as Trinidad as a little bit more industrial capital, a little bit more, I call it Caribbean metropolitan, if you will. Tobago is more of that unspoiled tropical paradise, right? Super rustic, amazing beaches, the Argyle Waterfalls, incredible. If you wanted a little bit more of that, I guess, romantic view of what the Caribbean, my whole view, then a couple of days in Tobago would be really important. So if I was going to take you to Trinidad for a long weekend, and I’ve done that with friends of mine, maybe let’s call it a four-day weekend, let’s say it’s Memorial Day weekend, I’d probably do two days in Trinidad. Give you a chance to kind of explore Port of Spain and Environs. We have this incredible roundabout, it’s actually the largest roundabout in the world called the Savannah.

It’s like a massive park that sits just outside of Port of Spain, the Magnificent Seven, these really incredible colonial buildings with a ton of history that are attached to them. I would take you up to the north coast of Trinidad on a nice drive. We’d go to Maracas Beach, which is where a lot of Trinidadians are found hanging out on a weekend also. And then you’d have to visit Arepita Avenue at night. It’s sort of a bustling avenue thoroughfare with lots of really cool bars and you get a little bit of a sense of the vibrancy of the people, some of the magic that comes with being a part of that Trinidadian culture and Trinidadian setup. So I’ll kind of give you a little bit of that introduction to our country over there. And then we pop over to Tobago for a couple days. Well, I’ll give you a little bit more of that sort of more rustic, more beach-forward, very kind of chill, laid-back vibe. And if you put those two pieces together, I think you got a very unique one-of-a-kind experience coming down to a place like Trinidad and Tobago.

There’s, especially since the pandemic, a lot of people have sort of looked into buying second homes, living on an island, spending half the year there or full-time or whatever. Obviously not just in places like Trinidad, but all over the Caribbean. What has your personal experience been like with the community there and the people that you work with in terms of people moving to live part-time down in the Caribbean?

MF: For sure. So I’ve seen and heard a lot of that. You’re right. I think from 2020 on, so we’re kind of the four years into this new chapter, I suppose, where that’s concerned. As a reminder, Ten To One as a brand is a pan… We have a pan-Caribbean orientation. We’re bringing rums to life from Jamaica, Trinidad, Barbados, the Dominican Republic, Guyana. And so even some of our lens up being not just Trinidad-centric, but looking at what’s happening in some of those other islands culturally, domestically, or otherwise. Barbados is actually a really good example of this, right? Where I think, to their credit, they did an exceptional job in the immediate sort of aftermath of the immediate advent of COVID where they realized that folks were looking for places to escape to, to spend some more time.

And whereas maybe, I don’t know, 10, 15, 20 years ago, people were happy to, I think, come to the Caribbean with a little bit of this more kind of rustic detached mindset, let’s call it, right? “I don’t care if the Wi-Fi works,” let’s just use that as an example. In the model you’re describing, obviously there’s a slightly different brief there. “I need the connectivity to allow me to do what I’m doing further afield while also enjoying, what, Barbados or Antigua or Saint Kitts might have to offer.” And so I think you’ve kind of seen this rise in more curated amenity-forward options. Some of those are more in the hotel hospitality side, some of those you’d see in some of the more modern bills that are popping up again in a place like a Barbados or an Antigua.

I think there’s also things that folks have done on the policy government side. Barbados as an example, has, I forget exactly what it’s called, but it’s a welcome stamp visa scheme, allows you to stay on the island for an extended period of time. I’m sure you’ve heard of the golden visa setups in other islands where folks invest. And then Europe, Portugal has something like that as well where you can invest a certain amount into personal property or some other vehicle on the island, which then again allows you to either get a visa extended, stay visa, get a passport, and then become part of the fabric there. And so I think you’re seeing a lot of that that has kind of risen in this kind of post-COVID more remote or at least professionally nomadic space where the Caribbean has become a more and more attractive destination with that in mind.

You mentioned a few different islands. Is there one in particular that you think in terms of this sort of remote working ability, this sort of new kind of nomadic lifestyle on an island, is there one that you think that if you had to move to the Caribbean for say six months out of the year, which one aside from Trinidad, that maybe you might choose?

MF: Yeah, I think the leader in the clubhouse is Barbados. And I think friends and colleagues of mine who actually are in Trinidad, I’ve made their way to Barbados in the last couple of years. I have some friends who are of Trinidad, Caribbean, parentage and descent who maybe are from the US or the UK who have also migrated to Barbados in the last actually 12, 12 to 18 months. And then I think, again, infrastructurally and from a policy perspective, they’ve had the most comprehensive and most proactive stance where this is concerned, like actively encouraging folks to make their way down there and make this part of their six months on, six months off, three months on, three months off kind of a setup. I think that’s a little bit different than some of those which are to me almost not more institutional, but they have more of a long-range sort of mindset attached to them versus the idea that you can live and work and unfold this sort of, again, into the fabric of your daily existence. So I think Barbados for most folks is the lead in the clubhouse where that’s concerned.

What would be the best beach in the Caribbean you’ve ever seen?

MF: Well, I haven’t seen them all, so I’ll say something on this podcast and then I’ll get some stick for excluding someone or something. But the Angola beaches I’ve seen were the best. We definitely the best. Yeah, I have to give honorable mention to our own beaches in Tobago, by the way. There’s a beach on the north coast of Tobago called Castara. It’s one of the ones that’s a little bit more out of the way. Again, if you want, you’d go there on an evening fishermen or the sun is setting, the fishermen are sailing in with the day’s catch. It’s a lot of generational families from Tobago who’ve been there for a long time and just know this as their beach. I think there’s experiences like that or like a Paula II VA or what have you in Tobago that at least for me growing up as a kid, were super, super special places. And I think getting some of that mixed into your Caribbean exploration, I think, again, has a ton of benefit to it.

Is there any kind of practical advice that you think you would give people that you’ve heard about Once people actually do it, they might say, “Gosh, I really wish I had realized X.” What sort of tips would you give for people? Obviously finding a place and making the purchase is probably the easiest part, but in terms of everything else, in the terms of the day-to-day, any advice?

MF: Yeah, I think to me maybe one of the bigger pieces of advice, and this is as somebody who’s from the Caribbean and obviously has a great deal of pride and passion for part of the world that I’m from, is to make sure that if you’re buying a second home down there or looking to, again, make it part of your routine, whatever that looks like, to really do a little bit of a double click to understand the nuances of the places and spaces you want to occupy. The Caribbean is not a monolith. Trinidad life in Trinidad is very different than life in Barbados, St. Lucia, Angola, Antigua. We haven’t even touched the Spanish-speaking Caribbean here, like the Dominican Republic and stuff.

There’s a whole other world. I’m speaking about English-speaking Caribbean here, USVI and BVI, right? So I think, and we all know what this is, there are places that are amazing to visit as a tourist, right? And some places that you would spend amazing four days in, you probably would struggle to spend 14 days in and the places you want to spend two weeks in and the places you want to spend three to six months in. And so I think that big piece of advice is to just have a slightly more nuanced approach to understanding the culture as it exists from place to place, and really kind of gets a little bit more dialed in on what you might be looking for as part of that experience.

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My last guests today are the designing couple of the firm, Rock & Villa. Interiors aficionado, Stefan Relic, and architect, Paulo Valcic. The two have been renovating and developing interiors in the island of Mallorca, complete with contemporary minimal aesthetics and a reverence for natural materials, and a respect for the island’s historic interiors. But they’re not natives, which we’ll get into, which is why I so enjoy talking to them for this episode. To them, Mallorca isn’t just a job, but their dream realized. I caught up with the savvy duo from their office. And before we get to everything Mallorca, tell me a little bit about where the two of you guys are from originally. You’re not from the island?

Paulo Valcic: I am.

Stefan Relic: Yeah.

Oh, you are? Okay. So Paulo, you grew up in Mallorca?

PV: No, no, no. I didn’t grow up in Mallorca. I grew up on a small island in Croatia, but it’s a very small island. It’s not like Mallorca. Mallorca is about 1 million people and my island in my island lives like maximum 10,000. And in my village is like 2000 maximum. It’s island-

Okay. What island is that?

PV: It’s close to across Zadar, which is like one hour north of Split I guess everybody more or less know where Split is in Croatia on Croatia coast. So yeah, I grew up there. It was a nice childhood, very protective.

And Stefan. Where are you from originally?

SR: I was born in a town, in a smaller town in Croatia, but then I was three years old when my family moved to Belgrade, the capital of Serbia. So I grew up in Belgrade and I was always a kind of a big city guy, but you never know how life path, where it takes you. I would never imagine that I would end up living in an island and then I would love it so much. Yeah, so I grew up in Serbia. I lived in several different countries throughout my studies and career. And then when we met around almost 10 years ago now, I was living in Serbia, Paulo was in Croatia. We did a long-distance relationship throughout four different cities. And then we decided to settle in Barcelona and we moved together to Barcelona around eight years ago. And then five years ago, life Path somehow brought us to Mallorca and here we are.

And so before we were talking, you guys mentioned that you were kind going lunch in Barcelona for the day and you can kind of go back and forth and I’m kind of wondering, all Americans are jealous of people that live in the Mediterranean or the region or even in Europe where they can be in a different country in an hour and in an hour’s flight be almost in so many different places. So why Mallorca? How did that happen? Why specifically did you choose there?

PV: Stefan will answer this question.

SR: Yeah, it was… In a way Mallorca chose us. We didn’t choose Mallorca back then. My profession had nothing to do with the design and the architecture. Paulo is an architect and interior designer and always has been. And I was working in fashion back then, and I was working for a big fashion brand in Barcelona. And then I got a job offer from a company here that has a headquarters here in Mallorca. And then we just decided to give it a go. Paulo back then, he was a freelance architect and an interior designer. He wasn’t tied to any company and it just seemed interesting. He came out of the blue, I didn’t look for it, I just got the job offer. And we were debating, “Should we do it? Should we not?” And we just say, “Yeah, why not? Let’s try it.” And this is how ended up here and we absolutely love it, and we were so happy that we did that move.

And so how did Rock & Villa begin? How did that start? How did you guys decide to make that leap and start working together as a couple?

SR: I think the first spark of it happened when we bought our first flat in Barcelona around eight years ago. When we moved there, we bought our flat and we decided to completely renovate it and design it ourselves. Obviously Paulo was an is back then architect in interior design, and I was always interested in interior design. So when we did the project of that flat, we realized that we work really well together on a project like that in all aspects in architecture, when obviously Paulo develops a project, but we were exchanging ideas and kind of getting to a point where we are agreeing on certain things. And then the design we did together and how we managed all the construction works. And then it turned out to be a really nice flat, it got published in several magazines here in Spain and then we realized maybe there’s something here. We seemed to be working very well together on a project like this, so this was the first spark. And then we did another flat as an investment back then in Barcelona, not branded under the Rôck&Villa, under this name. We sold it and then when we moved to Barcelona, we decided we wanted to do the same thing with typical Mallorcan houses, but branded under this name. So we were planning it for several years and then we went live with it around a year and a half ago with the first project. And then when we got the visibility, we started getting inquiries for clients’ projects as well, which we also work on together now. So this was the history of how it all started.

And Stefan, maybe if you could describe what you describe your style or your sense of style when it comes to interiors. How do you guys like to communicate that with clients? And why is it needed in Mallorca? I guess when other people go looking for a house in Mallorca, I’m sure they’re buying it as a second home most likely. And so they’re probably looking for something that is already designed well and they don’t have to redo it themselves. So tell me a little bit about your sense of interior style and contrast that with what normally is on the market here.

SR: I think what we are especially passionate about in terms of direction and design and the style is renovating historical buildings and houses here in Mallorca. Typical Mallorcan houses, they have a lot of soul, that have a lot of original elements, and this is what really inspires us and drives us and this is where we start from. And then we’re finding a way how to give it a contemporary and modern finish and touch, but always by maintaining the original historical elements. And this is something that we really like doing. And what I think that we do a bit different than the usual, the average thing or let’s say safe kind of property development, is people are usually going with a very safe design because they want this property to be very commercial and they want it to be easily or sold more fast because it needs to be safe.

But what we are doing, we are being a bit braver, which in a way it might not be commercial because sometimes it may happen that we can wait for a buyer a bit longer because it’s not everyone’s cup of tea. But we chose to go that way and we will always go that way because we just don’t want to suppress the creativity and the sense of style that we have for the sake of the property being more commercial. But again, as I said before, there still needs to be a bit of balance because if we would go all the way with our creativity and style, that probably wouldn’t be very commercial and safe. But we’re trying to find that right balance there.

PV: Yeah. Sometimes we discuss, we just go so into the project and we are so inspired we are putting things too poop, poop, poop, poop. And then we say, “Okay, calm down. Let’s see, how is it commercial?” We don’t want to lose this creativity and then also the commercial part. So it’s always like what Stefan said, it’s the balance.

And have you guys noticed… What year did you guys move to Mallorca?

PV: Five years ago.

Okay. So you moved there in about 2019. Since then, have you noticed, especially we’re talking about the pandemic period, an increase in the number of people that are interested in the island? How was the real estate market on the island?

SR: Definitely. Even five years ago it was a very trending destination, but now I think even more so, now we think it definitely is. Recently there was an article where Palma was, by some criteria, proclaimed as the city with the best quality of life in the world. And it’s getting increasingly popular, especially with the American crowd and the American audience. Two or three years ago there’s a direct flight that started from New York, Palma. They’re saying that there’s also going to be the Miami, Palma and even Chicago I think. So it’s being increasingly popular and especially with American audience.

Well Americans, we love a good direct flight. That is the most important thing. And why do you think a lot of Americans are coming to Mallorca? Beyond the direct flight, what do you hear from them that makes them say, “I would rather be here than in Greece or in the Caribbean or anywhere else.” Is it just the-

PV: I think it’s a combination of everything. The climate, the people, the food, history. I think that’s a perfect combo. So yeah.

And is it hard to find property in Mallorca? You guys are looking for things with a historic character that hasn’t been demolished completely, nothing that’s too contemporary. Is it hard to find those properties now?

SR: Depending on what your criteria is. As you said, we have our niche that we’re looking for, so for us it needs to be several criteria. It needs to be first that it has historical charm and history and so on. But then the property itself, it needs to have a potential in terms of layout, in terms of exterior space. So for what we focus on, there are several criteria that it needs to fulfill. And we have, let’s say, high standards in terms of what we want our final product to be. And in that way it is for us a bit hard to find the right property. And usually the best properties are off market and they’re not published and stuff like that.

So I would say that it’s not very hard, but it’s not very easy either. You need to find your way around and even get the contacts from local people. For example, the second property that we’re working on right now, this property came to us directly. So it was local people that saw what we were doing and they didn’t have the house published, they came to us and they offered seeing what we do and how we renovate the houses with respecting the history. And they said they wanted to leave it in the hands of someone like us that would renovate that house with care and with respect. So once you get here and when you get the right contacts, it’s in a way easy, but it’s not very easy.

If someone were to come to the islands maybe for the first time, obviously we all know a Ibiza is not that far away. What is a perfect week in the islands like to you? If I said I’m coming to the islands for the first time ever, which I’ve never been, so what would you say is a good seven days in the three islands?

SR: I think seven days is not enough. Seven days is not even enough for Mallorca. Mallorca itself is huge, you could spend here. I mean just we know local people that lived there for their whole life in Mallorca and they say they’re still discovering the island and it really is like that. So it wouldn’t definitely be enough.

Highlights.

SR: Highlights, yeah. But I would say in Palma probably it would be… I’d say four days in Mallorca, maybe one day to discover Palma, one day to discover some of the beautiful towns inside of the island and then do two days of beautiful beaches. And then probably two days of Minorca, which is much more wild, untouched, beautiful beaches as well. And then two days of Ibiza, one crazy night in Ibiza and then back home to recover.

One night only? Okay.

PV: It’s enough.

SR: Two nights is enough, one night is enough. More days in Ibiza could be intense.

And if you guys had to leave Mallorca and go to another island, which island would you go to?

SR: Tough one. I’m not sure if there’s a one that could really compare to Mallorca in terms of satisfying, I would say, at least our needs of day-to-day life. This is, again, I can’t say this enough how I think Mallorca is perfect because it offers you best of both worlds. You have the island, you have beautiful beaches, you have beautiful nature, but still you have this really developed infrastructure of everything in terms of cultural life, in terms of hospitals, in terms of healthcare, in terms of absolutely everything. So I really am not sure if at least in Europe there’s an island that could offer you all of that. It would have to be like if maybe one day we wanted a much calmer life, that might be maybe Minorca here or some of the islands in Greece, which I doubt because they’re very small. But yeah, I think it would be hard to replace Mallorca with everything that it offers.

I guess my last question I was going to ask earlier. How would you describe… Because both of you have lived there for a long time now, but you’re not from there originally. So as Croats, how do you perceive the Mallorcan people in their cultural attitudes compared to someone from Italy, someone from Split or someone from the UK or an American? What is that Mallorcan character like?

PV: I would say I always start first because I’m from the island, so I guess it has to do something with… People from the island are very specific. In some kind of way, they are protective because island is a small piece of land and in the past sources were very limited. So somehow people’s mind are stick to this. And people here also and people in Croatia on the Croatian Islands are just somehow protective. Which sometimes can be or sound like they are not welcoming, that they don’t want to give you something or whatever. But on contrary, people are very kind, giving and very warm everywhere on the island.

SR: Yeah. And I would maybe go a bit more general with the reply, not only island, I would just talk about Spanish people in general because I don’t think that typical Mallorcan mentality doesn’t really vary a lot from a typical mainland Spanish. But I would just say that for me, I absolutely love Spanish people, love Spanish culture, and we always say. We’ve been living here for eight years, I’ve been living in Spain before when I was studying many years ago. So for me its in total 12 years living in Spain. And I don’t see myself living in any other country and it’s because of people here. I absolutely love Spanish people, Spanish culture, Spanish mentality. They’re so open, so fun, they love living the life. They’re warm, open, welcoming. They just enjoy the life. They barely ever eat at home, they love their breakfast in the bar, their lunch in the restaurant, their laughs. They just love living the life. And this is what I love so much about living in Spain because people here are really amazing.

Thank you to all of my guests as well as to our sponsor Janus et Cie for making this episode happen. The editor of The Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don’t forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter, The Grand Tourist Curator at thegrandtourist.net. And follow me on Instagram @danrubinstein. And don’t forget to follow The Grand Tourist on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen and leave as a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Til next time!

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